Cuckold's Claw (Rock Hands)

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  • @declan Feb 22

    So today's payday and donation to FAWM day.

    Is there anyway I can make a donation and not receive the cuckold's claw next to my name.

  • @vomvorton  Feb 22

    You could use the 'FAWM D. Rockingfeller Foundation' donation option on https://fawm.org/donate/ and give the "cuckold's claw" to somebody else? Is that an actual expression btw? Every day is a learning experience on FAWM.org 😉

    edit: actually there's a "tip jar" button on there too that is just a donation with no associated reward / Cuckold's Curse.

  • @zxcvbnm  Feb 22

    Shakspeare talks of "Cuckold's horns" in Merry Wives of Windsor

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C...'s%20claw&f=false

    But I'm still confused 😀

  • @declan Feb 22

    It's a common variant on the one-fingered salute in Mediterranean countries.

    My objection is rather that it is a symbol of a brand of machismo in Rock that I dislike.

    Also it was popularised by Ronnie James Dio - the man who ruined Sabbath. Pretentiously, it's a symbol I would prefer not to associate with my art.

    But even at a concert while others do that salute I do the peace sign - isn't it better to send wishes of peace rather than devilry to those we admire?

  • @judypie  Feb 22

    I am so gonna start rocking out with peace signs instead of rock hands!

  • @dasbinky  Feb 22

    Nah, devilry is more useful in the musical sphere. Robert Johnson didn't sell his soul to Ghandi. 😉

  • @fuzzy  Feb 22

    Whoa whoa whoa, there; Ronnie James Dio did NOT ruin Sabbath.
    COCAINE ruined Sabbath.

  • @declan Feb 22

    @dasbinky Rock and Roll would have been better if he had.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    Personally I'm proud of my Rock hand!

    But then again, I like RJD as well as machismo. If I could give a one finger salute on my page I would. So a "Mediterranean will suffice"

    But to be serious, donate to FAWM, its a fantastic site, that can use your support. Hands be damned.

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22

    I should never have read this while in bed this morning. You had me thinking about all sorts of things. How Easter (and a ton of other holidays) has appropriated pagan traditions and transformed them. How Halloween came to be what it is today.

    I would argue that taking a symbol or practice and turning it into a positive... transforming it from what is ostensibly an evil/hate symbol (although that could be argued, I guess) into a symbol of empowerment and appreciation for the creative soul is the most positive action one could take.

    All that being said, I completely understand how your perception is valid and I would say that you can use the tip jar and just add a note (or send an email) and ask not to receive the rock hands. I doubt they have an alternative they could give you or would want to take time away from their fawming, but the mods/coders might have another option we haven't thought about.

    Or tag @jendistad and let her know as I believe she's the main rock hand supplier

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22

    Oh, I forgot to add... my daughter played softball on a couple of travel teams. She was pretty good, actually. And I was giving the rock hands to a good hit and her coach was wondering why I was giving the Texas Longhorn sign. Her coach played for MIZZOU and only associated the symbol with the university who used it in sports.

  • @declan Feb 22

    I'm not really buying that we're taking the symbol of toxic masculinity, school bullies and rotten music. Aren't we just validating?

  • @dasbinky  Feb 22

    @tcelliott Another Option: Adult Contemporary Hands? 😉

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22

    @declan - Maybe. And maybe I'm naive, but I've not seen much in the way of (or any, really) toxic masculinity, school bullies or rotten music here on Fawm. I'm not knocking your preference. I fully support you donating and not taking the rock hands for any reason, but especially for those you've listed. In fact, you should be thanked for helping support the site. But in this on-line culture of creativity (FAWM), it's intended meaning (you rawk) is the only meaning I get from it. But that's just me.

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22

    @dasbinky We could expand further: fawmtronica hands? (a picture of a robot giving the peace sign?)

  • @declan Feb 22

    I'm not talking about within FAWM but it is how that symbol is associated outside of FAWM that makes me dislike having it associated my name.

    And I also dislike "You Rawk" for simillar reasons.

    I think where I was going really is it would be nice to have a range symbols. Although Adult Contemporary Hands sounds like the sort of thing that will lead to a hashtag.

  • @zxcvbnm  Feb 22

    🤝 What about a handshake?

    At least on this thread. 😀

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 22

    I'm enjoying this thread tremendously. Thanks all

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    @declan said:

    "But even at a concert while others do that salute I do the peace sign - isn't it better to send wishes of peace rather than devilry to those we admire?"

    The "peace sign" was used back in the 8th century by the Saracens to mock Christians, and the peace symbol is a representation of the Cross of St Peter that was also used to mock early Christians.

    Might want to reconsider the peace sign if you don't like the rock hands.

  • @judypie  Feb 22

    Damnnnnnnnn! I'm gonna go back to using rock hands.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    Maybe they can extend the thumb on the sign, to represent the sign language gesture for "I love you"?

    Or just leave us have our rock hands and stop overthinking it?

  • @ustaknow Feb 22

    Hey @declan - I don't normally weigh in on these topics, but I do understand what you are saying. Moreover there is the 🤟 U+1F91F (if comes up here), Sign Language for "Love", or some drop the Index finger (I think Elvis did that on stage to a deaf fan?).

    My "thing", separate from this discussion, your take on it,
    --- is when on my first FAWM I put up a thread (I used to put up many, and told well liked, worthy to engage, --then)... anyway, I put up a thread in trying to "figure this place out" as many fawmlings do, and asked "how do you consider, go about finding songs to feedback-comment on?", or similar words.

    What troubled me and I left it alone 'till now (commented once previously this FAWM'19) - was the number of folks who said they would/would not comment if the "Rawk Hands" were not there.

    I am nothing if not rebellious of all authority in total, and would refuse that on those grounds, so as not to "conform", confirm, - as to "getting" comments-feedback since paid my $10 or bought swag.

    Ironically, I often wondered why there was not a "lifetime" type deal, since, ironically, I know there are many who'd, e.g., otherwise send $1000/10 ~ "lifetime donation" and never speak of their 10, 15, 20... year "experience", - "here" 😝 or that donation.

    However, many I observed, rather than first, ask questions, develop communication opt for a knee-jerk, foul intent, WTF? is this? type response, with a coincidental Pile-on, not their fault, but, "humour" does not translate well online sometimes and things get pulled sideways quickly as we've seen (esp with ESL folks who are Blunt, since their language IS).

    I could say more, but, that's e'nuff 😀

    Yeah, just "donate" anon. As this thread ages a day or two, prepare yourself 😝 or just read, and don't respond since got your answer. This one has great pile on potential, ime.

  • @declan Feb 22

    @godsmonkeyI think you're referring to the CND peace sign. I think that would tie my fingers into knots.

    I make the reverse V sign.

  • @pipewrench67  Feb 22

    Dio claimed his Italian grandmother used it to ward off the evil eye.
    Also;

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    @declan we're musicians, tying our fingers in knots is part of what we do.

    But TBH, while I get that you dont like the "rock hands" just remember sometimes a cigar is JUST a cigar.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    Know your "Rock hands"

    https://socialmettle.com/meaning-of-r...

  • @keithcuts Feb 22

    Hi @declan I hear ya.
    Rock hands are fine for some but I’m not down with some of the connotations associated with them in some of the hard rock circles in the 70s and 80s. I do love this site though and just did my paypal tip jar donation. It was long overdue. @ustaknow the thought did cross my mind that some people might skip over non rock handed usernames
    I can live with that. But yeah a different avatar I would have opted for 👍

  • @vomvorton  Feb 22

    @pipewrench67 now I want a cute little Yellow Submarine next to my name

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    Sign me up for the submarine as well

  • @leomozi  Feb 22

    Cool discussion! I haven’t seen the devil hands as a symbols of toxic masculinity, but I’m mulling it over. I always assumed everybody was doing the sign tongue-in-cheek. My very feminine sister used to do the horns and make her index and pinkie fingers dance to the beat, which was hilarious.

    Also fascinating to hear the anti-Christian history of the peace sign.

    Language evolves more than we usually think about. If we abandoned every word or gesture that has an unsavory past, we’d probably have some serious trouble communicating. On the other hand, if the unsavory associations with a word or gesture are fresh enough of powerful enough, maybe we should shelve it. I tend to fall on the side of “let’s judge it by why it means today instead of its original meaning,” but I recognize that sometimes the original meaning lurks beneath the surface.

    My favorite weird etymology: I believe “puttanesca” translates literally to something like “whorish.” As in, “I can’t get enough of this whorish spaghetti!"

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    @leomozi: " I always assumed everybody was doing the sign tongue-in-cheek."

    THIS!

  • @morti  Feb 22

    Hey @declan. I used to object to it too, but for me it was on religious grounds (devil horns and all). I don't mind it now. These symbols can mean lots of things to different people and maybe it would be a good idea if FAWM found a more inclusive symbol just so nobody's offended.

    That said, what symbol would you use? Women and men in rock for generations have used the rock hands. Some of their music has been bad, some of it has been good. The peace sign as well has meant different things at different times to different people, as we've discovered in this thread.

    I understand what you're saying and why the rock hands aren't ideal, but I don't think anything else is ideal either. So even if you argue FAWM should change the rock hands (and there is an argument for that), what should it be? What is less likely to offend?

    FAWM has had the rock hands forever as well and they carry a feeling of love and nostalgia for many here. Maybe it's not a battle worth fighting.

  • @declan Feb 22

    I'll take issue with the idea that "women and men in rock for generations have used the rock hands" I can't think of it being used regularly by the bands I liked ever - indie rock bands, or in Punk or most alternative rock bands (apart from the Metalhead Bandwagon jumpers). It's not a musically inclusive symbol, or even inclusive in rock. In fact it's associated with the people who used to beat me up at school and bottle the decent bands off at festivals.

    But I'm not talking about them being offensive to me. It's not like it's a swastika or other hate symbol.

    I'm coming from point of view that people can use this symbol if they want if it fits them. But let the rest of us opt or choose a more fitting symbol for us (I'd take the hippy peace V-Sign or the Punk two fingered salute myself). I suppose in a way I'm talking about celebrating the diversity of FAWM (akin to multi-culturalism) than looking for a symbol that includes us all.

  • @petemurphy  Feb 22

    I'm with @frenchcricket . This is fabulous.

  • @fuzzy  Feb 22

    I think the only solution is to level the playing field by finding a symbol that is equally offensive to everyone.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    Speaking of swastikas, until the 1930s it was a positive symbol, used by several eastern religions to symbolize well being. now 20% of the worlds population runs risk of being called a Nazi because someone doesnt understand the origin of the symbol.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-296...

  • @sapient  Feb 22

    Hands off mah rock hands!
    \m/ >..< \m/

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    @declan the V sign and punk salute might also be deemed offensive to some. So by you using it, others would find themselves in the situation you're in. IF we are to change it (and Im in the NO camp FTR) How about to records? FAWM could even designate donation levels by colors, Silver, gold, or Platinum.

    This would work, unless some militant 8-track enthusiasts get bent out of shape.

  • @judypie  Feb 22

    I'm with @fuzzy! I can't imagine us ever finding a symbol that NO-ONE finds offensive. Offense is rife!

  • @leomozi  Feb 22

    Thank you all for giving me an interesting, substantive conversation to have. I work all alone at home, and it seems like all I talk about with my wife and my siblings is kids, chores, and a certain person whom I shan't name because I'm sick of talking about him and sick of him existing.

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22

    To be fair, @declan was originally asking not to have the rawk hand symbol by his name when he donated. I'm positive there will be no issue with that.

    As far as a replacement symbol, I can't imagine finding one that is any more acceptable. For instance, my only problem with a record, vinyl symbol is that it is so small I probably won't recognize it as such.

    I'm definitely in the keep the rock hands but let people opt out of using them if they want camp.

  • @declan Feb 22

    @godsmonkey I would rather hope that if I chose the punk v-sign somebody would be offended - that’s kind of the point.

    @judypie it’s not about whether something is offensive or not. It’s about whether it is representative or not.

    So I’m not asking for the banning of this symbol just asking to be allowed a more culturally appropriate symbol.

  • @judypie  Feb 22

    @declan sure sure, I’m just saying it IS representative of Fawm so let’s keep it instead of trying to find something no-one find offensive since that’s impossible. But opt out of course if you don’t like it 😀

  • @jendistad  Feb 22

    If you ever want to donate, but don't want to receive a particular "reward" usually associated with the donation, just email donate at fawm dot org to let us know. We process donations manually, so that shouldn't be a problem. We just need to know what you want/don't want done. 😀

  • @declan Feb 22

    @judypie It’s quite unfair that you keep bringing up the idea of needing to find something that wasn’t offensive to anyone As if that is what I’m suggesting.

  • @judypie  Feb 22

    Sorry @declan ! One that everyone likes then. You know what I mean, just hard to please everyone is all I’m saying.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    @declan You seemed to take offense to the devil horns in your second post

    "It's a common variant on the one-fingered salute in Mediterranean countries.

    My objection is rather that it is a symbol of a brand of machismo in Rock that I dislike.

    Also it was popularised by Ronnie James Dio - the man who ruined Sabbath. Pretentiously, it's a symbol I would prefer not to associate with my art.

    But even at a concert while others do that salute I do the peace sign - isn't it better to send wishes of peace rather than devilry to those we admire?"

    I think @judypie was arguing that the rock hands ARE a symbol of FAWM, and thus, despite your apparent offense are representative of the site.

    you then go onto say:

    "So I’m not asking for the banning of this symbol just asking to be allowed a more culturally appropriate symbol."

    TBH, you'd be hard pressed to find a more appropriate symbol. Even though it is firmly trenched in the metal scene, to the lay person, it represents rock music in

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 22

    MichaelJacksonPopcorn.gif

  • @keithcuts Feb 22

    So there is a “light push” to donate to the site. I think that is totally fair. It seems that fawm could do well to increase its donation revenue but offering a few different symbols that show you donated. It does not have to be just one symbol for everyone. Those who like their rock hands could keep that and those who would prefer a star or a music note or ukulele could choose that.
    It would seem to be a very easy programming move and as is evident from this conversation almost guaranteed to produce an increase in $.

  • @declan Feb 22

    @godsmonkey

    Dislike and offence are not the same things.

    I think I've been clear that a culturally appropriate symbol, would be different for different people. In the way a Christian cross and the Star of David are symbols of individual faiths within a multi-culturally diverse society - you wouldn't use one to represent all.

    So when you say "Even though it is firmly trenched in the metal scene, to the lay person, it represents rock music" I dispute that represents all rock music, but in any case we are not all rock musicians (or lay people on the subject of music). It doesn't represent the cultural (i.e. musical) diversity of the site, which a range of icons would.

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22

    10 bucks for rock hands, 20 bucks for one of a very few select alternatives. It's a gold mine, I tell ya.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    I suggested further up, Old style LPs, Silver, Gold and Platinum for a three tiered system. Despite my joke about offending 8-track enthusiasts, the LP is pretty well, almost universally recognized.

  • @jamkar  Feb 22

    @tcelliott I live in Texas, but graduated Oklahoma, so yes hooke'm horns is not in my vocabulary. @declan your motives are true. I also believe FAWM needs it's own symbol. Rubber Ducky? Cowbell?

  • @declan Feb 22

    Everything’s better with cowbell.

  • @standup  Feb 22

    A drop down menu -- guitars, flutes, pencils, vinyl record, 8-track tape, cassette tape, vocal cords, Empire State Building, poop emoji. A festival of non-controversial symbolism. Of course we'd have to argue over what is or is not controversial.

  • @ajna1960 Feb 22

    @vomvorton that is a very sweet idea 😀

  • @devin  Feb 22

    I greatly appreciate the folks that build, maintain, and pay for the site. A symbol to indicate I did the tiniest bit to help reduce those costs is awesome.

    Personally, I always have/will chose the rock hands... but support other options as well (given that it’s a bit more code to create the graphic, and more code to have it follow folks around). At the end of the day, someone has to (probably) donate their time to cater to our desires.

  • @haim  Feb 22

    rock hands are legit. I don't think we need to change them. Keep the rock hands! For me they are just rock hands!

  • @pearlmanhattan  Feb 22

    Ohhhhh rubber ducky! Helgas for everyone!!

  • @fuzzy  Feb 22

    Instead of rock hands, maybe we could just have a picture of a rock.

  • @haim  Feb 22

    @fuzzy lol....

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 22

    Since when did rock & roll become about not offending anyone?

    Rock hands forever.

  • @judypie  Feb 22

    Orrrrrrr.....
    This next to our names?!
    [img][/img]

  • @sapient  Feb 22

    @judypie - that man has VERY shiny teeth... 😝

  • @airbagtester  Feb 22

    Teeth Hands! Rock Teeth! Rock Paper Scissors Hands!

  • @standup  Feb 22

    The next president of the United States.

  • @tcelliott  Feb 22



  • @balancelost  Feb 23

    At the risk of going even further down the toxic machismo route, I vote for:
    1) 💰
    2) thug life spliff
    3) pixelated penis (erect or flaccid)

  • @judypie  Feb 23

    +1 for 3 (flaccid)

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 23

    @balancelost Snarky and a SFA fan?

    Nice!

  • @balancelost  Feb 23

    @godsmonkey It's like verbal heroin. I ruin every conversation but I can't stop doing it.

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