Pronouns

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  • @frenchcricket  Jan 20

    I know a lot of people on Twitter do it, which is awesome, but can I encourage the practice of putting our pronouns (e.g. she/her he/his they/them) on our profile pages? It makes it much more comfortable for trans people especially non-binary peeps. Thanks xx

  • @alyxanderjames  Jan 20

    This is an excellent idea! Off to update my profile!

  • @stephenwordsmith Jan 20

    My preferred pronoun is 'you'. I'd rather be talked to than about.

  • @klaus  Jan 20

    My preferred pronoun is "he". But I'm a "traditional" hetero man so it's totally understandable.

  • @helenseviltwin  Jan 20

    Done!

  • @johnstaples  Jan 20

    Dunno if it would be possible but it would be nice if this could somehow be added to our username like the rock hands.

  • @bradbrubaker  Jan 20

    Done.

  • @charliecheney  Jan 20

    I thought this was a songwriting challenge at first, like to write a whole song using only pronouns. 😀

  • @oddbod  Jan 20

    I’m just glad I now know what a pronoun is

  • @caitlinpieper Jan 20

    Great idea! My profile is updated. Thanks for bringing this up 😀

  • @fourzeroes  Jan 21

    That's one challenge I can definitely complete this FAWM 😀

  • @acromie  Jan 21

    Love this. Yes! Absolutely.

  • @kahlo2013  Jan 21

    Yep! I had put my pronouns on my page this year.

  • @klaus  Jan 21

    @johnstaples I know you mean well but that's not a good idea, John.

    Freedom of expression ( bios, songs ) is one thing. Write whatever you want. But it's not wise to somehow "hardwire" this issue, or any political, ideological or religious etc etc issue, to the site itself like rock hands.

    FAWM is first and foremost about us people rising above all our differences and being united in creating new music and having fun.

    That's the precious essence of FAWM. It should stay that way.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 21

    @klaus I know you mean well but it is a great idea! 😁 (Probably not practical from a technical standpoint given the website age though.)

  • @darkmantle  Jan 21

    Love this idea!

    I do like the idea of it appearing by the rock hands too. It's more inclusive but also helpful.

    Some people don't have names that make it obvious, like mine, and images that aren't helpful either along with those names, like @kahlo2013. You can't tell in the forums, or if I'm reading comments on my songs if someone is male/female/other.

    So it's a win/win situation. 🙂

  • @kahlo2013  Jan 21

    Okay @darkmantle I wonder if I should change my image too... although with my short hair and glasses I look a lot like my grandpa used to look so it may not be helpful to show that I’m a cis-woman😁

  • @jcuempire  Jan 21

    Fixed. Nice idea!

  • @darkmantle  Jan 22

    I'm not saying it's bad @kahlo2013 It was more to illustrate why it's good overall to add it as a setting. Lots of people use band photos, or album covers too. 😀

  • @elesimo  Jan 23

    Updated my profile as well! Great idea!

  • @rainchaser  Jan 23

    Done and donner

  • @mdavisto  Jan 23

    I'm here for the music. Refer to me in whatever way makes you comfortable.

    A non-gendered rock hand is the most inclusive.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 4

    Bumping this! Please check pronouns before commenting, I've already had a few comments assuming I'm a dude

  • @cairobraga  Feb 4

    this also helps to normalize the fact that perceived gender expression does not automatically correspond to gender identity, so let's also remember to ask people in real life how they prefer to be refered as.

  • @petemurphy  Feb 4

    Further to my earlier comment in this thread, I've updated my profile to add the following -

    "Pronoun stuff - he / him. I find a lot of the gender and sexuality terms confusing, and I'm not a big fan of putting labels on myself, musically or otherwise, but I think 'fluid poly male' would probably best describe me. "

    I have no idea if that's the correct term, or if it's a confusing way of putting it, BUT it's the first time I've ever posted anything like this in a public forum. I've only discussed it with a few very close, trusted people until now.

  • @cairobraga  Feb 4

    @petemurphy if it feels right to you, then go with it. and thank you for trusting this whole community with your truth. we got you, boo!

  • @petemurphy  Feb 4

    Thanks @cairobraga !
    "Coming Out On FAWM" - there's got to be a song (or several) in there.

    I've alluded to it on a couple of songs on recent albums I've released, but never outright said it 'on the internet'.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 4

    You're welcome to join us on the Queer FAWMers thread should you want to!

  • @wr3n  Feb 4

    For some background:
    Pronouns are most commonly listed as "she/her/hers", "they/them/theirs", and "he/him/his." The format is handy to remember when you run into something less common like "ze."
    At it's essence the practice is simply for clarification and eliminates guesswork.
    It doesn't say anything about the gender or orientation of a person, save that the practice is especially promoted in trans communites where gaffes are more touchy. 😀

  • @elesimo  Feb 4

    I would want to add one thing to what @wr3n said. Even if you're not queer, even if you don't care how people refer to you, even if you think "I'm clearly a man, I'm cis and straight, my name is John Mann and I go by he/him/his, so I don't need to specify by pronouns", it's nice to do it because it stops people from making assumptions, and makes it more natural for people to ask what pronouns someone prefers.

  • @oblivionratula  Feb 4

    I just updated my profile stating my utter lack of a preference (mostly-cis male privileged recognized), but always do my best to respect others' wishes. I'm not perfect at it, but never intend offense and take correction graciously.

    And special nods to @petemurphy and @cairobraga 's comments above. <3

  • @wr3n  Feb 4

    At the end of the day, even if trans people didn't exist, you still have women named Alex, men with long hair, different cultural norms... And sometimes you need to talk about space_face87 who has an avatar of a spaceship 😝 honestly not sure why it often comes across as a "Trans Issue"

  • @mistermann  Feb 4

    Profile updated and thread bumped. ❤️

  • @antlion Feb 5

    Thanks for bringing this up!

  • @declan Feb 5

    Is there much need on here to refer to someone in the third person?

    We're talking to each other not about each other.

  • @alyxanderjames  Feb 5

    @declan Yes, but it also can help avoid potentially hurtful ignorance, like addressing a woman with, “hey man, nice song”. Plus if you’re referring a person to someone else’s songs, it’s helpful then, too. It’s a small act that can make it easier for people to move through the world.

  • @declan Feb 5

    I'm open to persuasion on this, but I would be uncomfortable referring to myself in the third person ever, but especially on a profile. It seems a bit like those people who sign off a letter Mr John Smith - I would never be so crass as to give myself a courtesy title. People have said that I should do that because the recipient won't know whether your a man or woman, but I could never understand being bothered if someone got it wrong.

    I think both of @alyxanderjames's examples would be better dealt with by referring to people by name.

  • @helenseviltwin  Feb 5

    I don't see how stating your pronouns is referring to yourself in the third person any more than telling someone what your name is.

  • @wacha  Feb 5

    Updated my profile, I see nothing wrong with helping to be more inclusive.

  • @declan Feb 5

    The more I think about this the less I like it to be honest. Why should anybody have to define what gender they are anyway? Because other people lack manners and won’t use your name?

    My mother always used to say “who’s she the cat’s mother?”

  • @alyxanderjames  Feb 5

    @declan If you don't want to put your pronouns in your profile, that's your choice. Plenty of folks have very patiently explained why this is a helpful thing for those of us who are trans, non-binary, or otherwise gender-expansive. You don't need to participate if you have a personal problem with it, but please try to exercise a little empathy for those of us who do find this helpful.

  • @oblivionratula  Feb 5

    @declan "But I could never understand being bothered if someone got it wrong." Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean it bothers no one. Blaspheme is usually pretty funny to me, but I have the empathy to know it deeply bothers others. My opinion on whether or not they should 'just get over it' has no bearing on how it makes them feel. It is an attack on identity.

    We have no ideas what battles others have fought in their lives to find and/or claim their identity. Especially younger people who may be here very well could be figuring this all out. If it's been easy for you your entire life, huzzah. But if you're still finding the voice to say, "This is me," someone dismissing that out of hand can be withering. It would be AWESOME if it was a non-issue. But it's an issue for some/many.

    Like you, I don't care how I'm gendered, but I fully understand the pain it can cause others. And it costs me nothing to try to respect others. So why not? . . .

  • @oblivionratula  Feb 5

    . . . If your solution is to only use names - great. That works. But some will want to use pronouns, and this helps guide them on which are preferred. What's the harm?

    My two cents. I'm glad you're open to persuasion. I hope I've given you food for thought. I have no idea what cats have to do with any of this, though.

  • @mikeskliar  Feb 5

    I totally support the idea of people listing pronouns of choice, if they want, and agree with what many/most have been saying on this thread. Im a cis male, (updated my profile to add pronouns anyway, in solidarity as an ally) but hey, it's a songwriting site..so.. i was thinking about this and it inspired a song 'pronouns'. https://fawm.org/songs/91251/

  • @declan Feb 5

    This is feeling like bullying now.

    I don’t think there’s any need to post long aggressive responses that will appear on my profile page throughout FAWM. Simply because I don’t think it’s appropriate to force people to define their gender.

  • @declan Feb 5

    Oops, the comments whilst they appear on my landing page they don’t appear on my Soundboard, which is what I was annoyed about.

    Sorry.

  • @tobermory  Feb 5

    @declan D'oh! Okay that's a misunderstanding. Oh well.

    I've updated my profile because making other people feel better is free. And that last sentence is not a dig at anyone 😀

  • @johnstaples  Feb 5

    I appreciate, respect and support the OP's request/suggestion. But, as a practicing pragmatist I suggested it would be nice (and a whole lot more useful) to have this as part of our avatar. Because while the intention is good, as a practical matter I doubt very many people will go visit our soundboards and search for our pronouns before addressing us in a conversation.

    And just a quick observation...I don't think @declan was being insensitive or disrespectful at all, rather, declan was suggesting we be more respectful by simply addressing each other using our FAWM names! (And, ironically, I just noticed a pronoun would have been useful in that sentence!)

  • @mdlbear Feb 5

    Good idea! Done.

  • @ustaknow Feb 6

    Interesting thoughts here - I started to tag my ID and *songs as, pronoun-musician

    Generally speaking, - I take the APA's position on this as I understand it, -- I guess I'm just a bit to academic sometimes; but, when it comes to tacit demonstrations, one "should" ? "assume" what? [06Feb2019]

    So, derUgo, Uno?

    Have a great FAWM2019!

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 6

    Do we REALLY need to politicize EVERYTHING? I'm here for the music, and sharing a creative culture. not what pronoun a person prefers.

    Besides, I almost never use gender pronouns in my comments. If I want to talk about someone, I will talk to that person. Because in the end, your "gender" is irrelevant to me.

    But if you MUST assign an identifier to me, I prefer "Pan dimensional Demi-Gorgon"

    We good?

  • @mightygoodness Feb 6

    I think kicking off about someone wanting to be inclusive of eveyone is a bit political too to be honest!! X

  • @helenseviltwin  Feb 6

    I don't see that this is political, and it's certainly not obligatory. If you don't want to put your pronouns on your page, that's your choice. If you want to see why some people do, I think @oblivionratula summarised it really well.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    a) I didn't think this would cause so much controversy
    b) I expected songwriters to display a little more empathy

  • @helenseviltwin  Feb 6

    My response was to @godsmonkey - cross-posted with @mightygoodness - just got clarity

  • @adforperu  Feb 6

    The "here for the music" comment is a bit of a tired get out clause on this one. We're all here for the music. But we're also here to communicate with one another. Having read the thread, you may have noticed that people have already been misgendered even though they state their preferred pronouns. Since checking affects you in no way whatsoever, I don't really understand why you felt the urge to post this contrary viewpoint. It's a "it doesn't bother or affect me, so why does it bother or affect anyone else" attitude.

  • @cairobraga  Feb 6

    here's something for the people "annoyed" about the "politicizing" of "everything" and "pronouns" to think about: we're 7 billion individuals on this planet, so there's 7 billion chances to exercise empathy. it might not sound that way but it's way easier than writing 14 songs in 28 days, I can guarantee you. we all can try, just like FAWM. 😁

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 6

    @helenseviltwin Like I said, you will seldom, if ever see me refer to someone as "he" "she" "ze" or whatever. I prefer to tag the person (Wait, is person a pronoun? Damn, did I just break my own rule?)

    @adforperu Yes, I am here for the music, not to worry about accidentally offending someone. This whole thread just smacks of in your face forced political correctness and agree with @mightygoodness assessment that "I think kicking off about someone wanting to be inclusive of eveyone is a bit political too to be honest!!"

  • @alyxanderjames  Feb 6

    @godsmonkey No one is forcing you to do anything here. You are choosing to come into this thread and be upset that people are asking for a little empathy and respect.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    how is it forced?

  • @cairobraga  Feb 6

    also @godsmonkey, I'm almost sure that the phrase you quoted from @mightygoodness and agreed with was actually about what you said and how you came here (again, no one forced you to do anything) just to disagree for the sake of disagreement, used "politicization" as a counter-argument to what we're proposing (again: PROPOSING not imposing) without realizing that saying that is a political stance and discourse in itself.

    also, friendly reminder to everyone: there's no such thing as "apolitical" or "abscence of politics" when it comes to human beings that live in societies and communities they built themselves. every damn little tiny itsy bitsy thing we do, make and communicate is intrinsically political. there's no way of "escaping" or "avoiding" that.

  • @alamous Feb 6

    Also, most of the time (like now) "forced political correctness" actually means "wanting people to be nice to each other". A simple mention of pronouns won't hurt anyone, but it might help to create a secure atmosphere for some folks, can't see a downside to that. Especially when it is totally voluntary.

    It's nothing to feel threatened about so if you find your pulse rising, take a chill pill and continue living your life free of pronouns.

  • @corinnelucy  Feb 6

    I love you @frenchcricket, you write incredible weird music and you make polite thoughtful suggestions. Profile pronoun'd.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    You know, I really like that song 'She Loves You' by The Beatles but I can't stand all of that forced political correctness

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    @corinnelucy thank you!

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 6

    Perhaps my use of the term "forced" was an over reaction. the term the OP used was "encouraged". I'll take the hit on that.

    Perhaps I AM insensitive. I've been misgendered on more than a few occasions (maybe part of the reason I grew a beard? Never thought of that before.) or perhaps this is why I always choose to address a person by name, and tend to avoid pronouns.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say "I'm offended" but will concede that a 60 reply thread has been made over this.

    In summation, I wasn't trying to offend in my original post, but I stand by my assertion that "encouraging" people to post preferred pronouns is being political.

    My original post for reference:

    Do we REALLY need to politicize EVERYTHING? I'm here for the music, and sharing a creative culture. not what pronoun a person prefers.

    Besides, I almost never use gender pronouns in my comments. If I want to talk about someone, I will talk to that person. Because in the end, your "gender" is irrelevant to me.

    But if

  • @saumera  Feb 6

    Ugh someone please fix this 1000 character cutoff bug

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 6

    @alamous "Also, most of the time (like now) "forced political correctness" actually means "wanting people to be nice to each other"."

    I can be nice to a person without pronouns. JS.

    I've been informed the @frenchcricket writes " incredible weird music" I'm FAR more interested in that, than a pronoun!

  • @cairobraga  Feb 6

    @godsmonkey there's nothing wrong about being political, you know that, right? and if you've been misgendered in your life before, you should take some time to think that just how you ended up growing a beard to avoid that kind of situation, some of us prefer to state our preferred pronouns and know other people's to avoid that kind of situation.

    and here's something about being a queer person (even more so if you're a visibly queer person): being "political" or "politicizing everything" it's a means of survival for us, without it we die, by other people's hands or by our own, and how language and communication play a structurant part in that cannot be understated, it must be remembered until everybody understands what it means.

  • @alamous Feb 6

    @godsmonkey its wonderful that you don’t need pronouns to be Nice, you should definately keep that up and let other people use pronouns, I don’t see the problem here.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 6

    @cairobraga: "there's nothing wrong about being political, you know that, right?"

    Nothing at all. In fact a lot of my music is political. But tends to stay away from left v right paradigms, and more along big v small government ones.

    As for the "queer experience" I work in a career (Graphic arts) at a location (a library) where there is a FAR higher than normal ratio of LGBTQIAP persons. many of whom are friends. TBH, the use of pronoun use has never come up. nor would I ever assume to understand why being political = a survival tactic.

    And as for the beard, I'm mostly too lazy to shave.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    'I' is a first person pronoun by the way x

  • @morti  Feb 6

    This is a wonderful thread and has got me thinking.

    I don't put my pronouns on anything because it feels weird. Reading through this thread though and some of the experiences of people on here, it shouldn't. I can't imagine it feels less weird for trans people either and it's something they kind of have to do in order to be properly referenced as who they really are.

    If I'm going to be a trans ally, and if I'm going to help make this thing more normal for everybody, I'm going to start going through every online bio I have and stick my pronoun in there. If everyone just does it then it's not weird and awkward any more.

    I'm a CIS male, none of this is about me or what I need or being useful to me. It's about:

    1. Solidarity.
    2. Normalising the practice so people who have to do it aren't different.
    3. Making this a more welcoming environment for everyone.

    Thank you, @frenchcricket. I've learned something new here that I'd never considered before.

  • @alyxanderjames  Feb 6

    @morti Exactly this. Thank you.

  • @godsmonkey  Feb 6

    @frenchcricket "'I' is a first person pronoun by the way "

    Very true, but only *I* have the right to use it on myself. 😜

  • @klaus  Feb 6

    This is nice. Fawm finally starts to feel as touchy and political and "flammable" as every other site. I was wondering when it would happen.

    I miss the old Fawm when it was all about the music and having fun. I think it started after Trump got elected. Where have all the good times gone?

  • @alyxanderjames  Feb 6

    @klaus The vast majority of this thread is entirely civil. "Flammability" only enters the picture in the moments when people are upset by the concept that some of us like to know what pronouns our fellow humans use. There's nothing "touchy" or "flammable" about people asking for empathy and respect.

  • @oddbod  Feb 6

    @klaus they're still here Klaus
    ...the world just moved on a little faster while you weren't looking 😉

    BTW @morti - nicely put

  • @bithprod Feb 6

    I'm kind of with Pan Dimensional Demi-Gorgon here, but mostly because I don't care what people call me. He, she or it. Some people even call me shit. I should probably write a song about it, but can't be bothered, unless someone twists my arm. It would be a good one, but people would definitely be offended.

  • @klaus  Feb 6

    @oddbod Yes, I know they are still here. 😀

  • @fecknom Feb 6

    To address the new voice about to jump into this thread that doesn't understand why pronouns are important for queer/trans/non-binary people:

    Using my pronouns acknowledges that I am who I say I am in a world where people insist that I'm not; frenchcricket has made a perfectly reasonable request. I get that it may seem like small potatoes, but it's personal, exists in a larger context of transphobic discrimination and violence, and is a form of respect given to everyone else (even if someone gets yours wrong, they're nearly 100% of the time sorry once they figure it out). They're surprisingly hefty potatoes.

    FAWM is a friendly place, and it's less friendly to folks like us when threads like this become a debate. You have the power to not continue that debate. Take what you will from the comments already made, but please let us put our energy into our songs.

  • @thelowestbitter  Feb 6

    Been reluctant to jump into this as I've watched it unfold, as I don't really have anything new to add that hasn't already been covered - at length and with great patience and eloquence - by lots of others. But @morti's comments about allyship jumped out at me, and in that spirit I do feel it is worth adding my voice to the many others here who see using people's preferred pronouns as a simple common courtesy, and something that really shouldn't require debate or evoke controversy.

  • @morti  Feb 6

    @thelowestbitter Thank you. This has been a learning experience for me. I never knew how putting my pronouns out there would help people. I watched this thread for a couple of days without jumping in and gave it some thought, about how and why it felt kind of uncomfortable to me, but ultimately it's the right thing to do. There are a lot of people here like myself who have the privilege of not having to deal with it but by choosing to anyway we're signalling our support and friendship. There's no controversy here and nobody will be blamed for choosing not to have that signal on their profile. It feels odd, it's counterintuitive, it's counter-culture, but it's a small effort for quite a big gesture. It still doesn't feel natural to me and it isn't something I need, but it's not for me.

  • @declan Feb 6

    I don’t believe that the original suggestion was political in the slightest.

    However, I’m quite upset by @frenchcricket suggesting that those of us who don’t wish to define ourselves in our profiles are lacking empathy.

    It precisely because I’m conscious of dangers of labelling and categorising people that I’m wary of this suggestion. There feels like there’s quite a lot of peer-pressure to conform to this suggestion. I’m worried about those that aren’t ready to publicly declare a gender or can’t do so on the Internet without repercussions. Not everyone lives in a liberal society and FAWM is interconnected to other social media accounts. So I don’t want to cajole people into a declaration on here when that declaration has to be an untruth due to pressures in the real world.

  • @declan Feb 6

    But obviously you should always try to get personal pronouns correct. That’s just good manners.

    If you get it wrong and it’s pointed out to you. Say sorry and get it right next time.

  • @alyxanderjames  Feb 6

    @declan I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the decision not to self-identify is lacking in empathy. The suggestion that this idea of putting pronouns in our profiles *should we choose to do so* is somehow “too political” or “forcing political correctness” is what we’re taking issue with.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    @Declan that wasn't what I was suggesting, and I'm not quite sure how you got there from what I said? If you don't want to, or can't declare pronouns for whatever reason, that's absolutely fine.

  • @declan Feb 6

    @frenchcricket wrote “I expected more empathy from songwriters”. I was trying to show that my objection came from a place of empathy.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 6

    I didn't think I needed to put it on record - but regardless, I support everyone, however they identify, and whether they are open about it or not

  • @wr3n  Feb 6

    Just my $0.02: I encourage folks who find it political to simply think of it as a variant of the Mr./Ms./Miss/Dr./etc. titles that airline loyalty programs, for some reason, always seem to have. I've never used them but they're unobtrusive enough that I don't mind 'em.
    It's just making the information available if needed.

  • @kenficara  Feb 6

    This is a great idea, and I've updated my page. I also agree with John that it would be nice to have this as a profile setting.

    It saddens me that simply asking to be treated respectfully can be considered "divisive" or "political."

  • @complexissimple Feb 7

    Hmm. . . My perspective on this is a little different.
    @frenchcricket's original post said pronouns on our profile pages makes it much more comfortable especially for non-binary people. As a non-binary person, it actually makes me uncomfortable to try to choose pronouns for myself. I would be SUPER uncomfortable if we were required to choose pronouns to display next to our names on the forums. I don't particularly identify with any of them, and telling everyone to refer to me by the same ones feels like the opposite of embracing my (a)gender identity. Is it as uncomfortable for me to provide pronouns as it is for other people when I don't provide pronouns? Who knows?
    I notice that all the objections to this practice seem to be coming from people who personally have no preferred pronouns, who don't seem to have realized yet that unlike when filling out forms which provide limited options, we can simply state "pronouns: don't care" or "I prefer not to be referred to using pronouns

  • @complexissimple Feb 7

    Stating such things up front is not a necessary politeness, but helpful for those who are looking for the answer to what they should call you so as not to offend, but may be concerned that asking would be an offense in itself. As such, it may yet become common courtesy, particularly online where it is harder to make assumptions about people's identities.

    @wr3n You may find the often *required* Mr./Miss/Mrs. fields unobtrusive, but I hate them. There is no good option for me. Also, the fact that Miss and Mrs. are still in such common use when we have Ms. bothers me for different reasons.

  • @frenchcricket  Feb 7

    @complexissimple in practise (in real life conversations with or about you) though how does it work? I’m not trying to be snarky or anything I genuinely want to know. I take it none of the neo-pronouns or they fits either?

  • @complexissimple Feb 7

    @frenchcricket Uh, people just call me by whatever pronouns and I don't correct them. I just don't have a preference. I generally don't worry about specific instances of being perceived as one thing or another as long as I get a good balance. I tend to dress more feminine one day and more masculine the next for the same reason (and also because it's fun).

    I don't have a problem with neo-pronouns, except that they can be difficult to know how to pronounce, but I also don't really connect with any one of them over the others. "They" is similarly difficult because we have no grammatical differentiation between the singular and plural forms. Perhaps we should start using "th'all" for the plural? 😝

  • @calumcarlyle  Feb 7

    I had actually never thought of this issue, in this way. Is it making it easier for trans people if we all specify our preferred pronouns, or is it just drawing attention to our differences, when we are actually all human and, well, in this case, all songwriters?

    That's not intended as a challenge, but just as a thought.

  • @klaus  Feb 7

    I agree with @calumcarlyle.( Hi Calum! )

    I'd add that I really don't care if you are gay, lesbian, trans or anything. If I like your songs or lyrics I'll give a comment or suggest a collab. When the first thing on the bio is a mention about sexual orientation and a list of pronouns, it makes me feel that it's the most important thing instead of music.

    In Fawm it's songs and music that bonds us all together. I can't say the same about sexuality and gender issues. I think they are very personal and intimate things. And frankly, I don't understand most of it, nor have time to learn.

    In songs, on the other hand, there are no restrictions, except NSFW tag. You have complete freedom of expression there.

    This too is just a thought. ( And I really have to get on with my own songwriting now... )

  • @helenseviltwin  Feb 7

    @calumcarlyle - ttrans/non-binary people often state their pronouns so as not to be mis-gendered. I would say that cis people also stating their pronouns means there is less attention drawn to differences. If people are uncomfortable doing so, or have other reasons they choose not to, then of course, no-one should be pushed into stating pronouns, but overall I see it as unifying, not divisive.

    @klaus - I disagree with some of your conclusions, but as per your wishes, I'm going to go back to writing music rather than respond to your points.

  • @terriellen Feb 7

    Being trans I've had my pro-nouns in my bio from day one! But so awesome to see this!

  • @valeriecox  Feb 7

    When I was really young, people would often refer to me as he, which irritated me because even though I didn't identify fully as a she, I didn't identify at all as a he. So yeah, totally get your point. I'll go add my pronouns.

    EDIT: Just noticed I'm the 100th commenter Do I get a prize? 😝

  • @roddy  Feb 7

    I have just added my pronouns to my profile. It was very easy to do and if it helps anyone in anyway then I am pleased to have done it.

  • @complexissimple Feb 7

    @godsmonkey and @klaus, who complained about this being a "political" thing that distracts from the music, and @declan, who was concerned about people outing themselves:
    As @wr3n said above, stating your pronouns is not actually the same as stating your gender. You are merely telling people how you currently wish to be referred to in casual conversation. There doesn't need to be any complicated discussion of how you identify sexuality-wise or politically. It's simply that the use of pronouns is largely unavoidable in English and you're asking not to be called by ones that make you uncomfortable (this includes the discomfort of being prematurely outed). If someone puts "she/her pronouns" in her profile, you don't know if she's a cis woman, a trans woman, a trans man, etc. You just know not to use "he". The typical four or five syllables of a pronoun statement shouldn't be any more distracting than other personal information in someone's bio, such as location or emotional state.

  • @complexissimple Feb 7

    I'd also like to point out that just because *you* may not use pronouns in your comments, doesn't mean you can assume that no one else will. Most people probably will, if not specifically asked not to.

    @calumcarlyle I don't consider myself trans. I have little doubt that trans people *do* prefer pronoun precision.

  • @karan  Feb 7

    Language shapes our world and our perception, but with our perception we also shape our language - this is why it is so important to become more precise and aware. Thanks for initiating this; I have added my pronouns. 😀

  • @skylermf  Feb 8

    Of course being on this site makes it easy with profile pictures, but I get misgendered more often than you might think because I have a gender neutral name. Just a week ago I had a school thing and a teacher asked for “Mr. Skyler” to raise his hand for attendance lol. Just updated my profile!

  • @calumcarlyle  Feb 9

    This is a really interesting discussion to me, especially since i come from a position of white male straight gendernormative and heteronormative privelege.

    It is easy for me to say "it doesn't matter, we're all humans together" but if someone is made, against their preference, to feel uncomfortable in the world, on the basis of some characteristic that they have, then in their life, their gender, or their sex, or whatever that difference is, becomes a much more central issue for them than it is for me. And it may not matter too much if i think it shouldn't have to be an issue for them, because we don't live in that world where everybody's personal norms are accepted equally.

    And may i also say that this group here on FAWM seem to me to be one of the most tolerant for discussing things like this. If i were to try to raise this, or join in with this, in some other popular discussion forum, i'm sure a lot less progress would be being made.

    PS further to Valerie Cox' comments, when i was a boy, i had quite long hair, and the name "Calum" was virtually unheard of back then so i often would get mistaken for a girl. Looking back, i'm genuinely not sure if that annoyed me, but if it did, i have to say it wasn't because of anything to do with being a girl, just because people were judging me incorrectly. And that is how i imagine people feel who do not fit the cultural norm, but as i say, now i am an adult, i can only pretend to relate to that, at best.

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