Self Evaluation, but, by what standard?

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  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    So, I see these pop ups all the time for "better" guitar playing and etc. I assume we all do, or know of them. I've never engage them.

    For no reason at all, fawmover? πŸ˜€, I engaged:

    So, Fender, - great idea to teach folks how to play guitar, and then sell them one!

    I went right to their "highest level, the toughest they had to offer.

    What happened?

    Well, I gotta say, my standards must be very different. That stuff would all have been part, a small part of what I'd use to introduce someone to the guitar, and - not that way.

    I did like this one brief "tutorial", but not in the course and basically told one all it could, and could be known. I kept looking for those, - no more to be found.

    So, if I understand Fenders highest, advance level, I am orders of magnitude beyond even that πŸ˜€

    Now, I've never thought "that" highly of myself. However, it did give me pause to think WAAAAaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyeeeeee back when and what all that may have looked like, - to do. I guess I've learned a few things over time and may have discounted it or had no way to collate it to "progress", - I have progressed!

    I remember a buddy who made a living teaching specifically, and only, electric guitar. He said, no one ever had to teach *you how to hold a pick, or even a guitar, - some folks need that, and *stick with it too!

    Then I think of when a student came to me one evening and said, "my guitar tuner does not work, it's not in tune πŸ˜€" (no, not the Gibson Robot Tuner, - a "tuner" πŸ˜€ ) and was holding the guitar like a cello.

    - She had quite a voice, stuck with it and - is now a "guitar player", performer.

    I just don't get many opportunities to get a "Universe" supplied, self assessment, and is, just so, - good; not scheit on, today πŸ˜€ type thing. It felt good.

    Ever get one of those? πŸ˜€ (rhetorical) πŸ˜€

  • @guatecoop  3 weeks

    Well then, I guess that means you qualify for...buying their most expensive guitars!! 😜. Or they hope

  • @candle  3 weeks

    The @ustaknow Fender Deluxe Custom Stratocaster, @guatecoop ? πŸ˜‰

    Can't say I've had a similar experience. But to be honest, I've never thought highly of my playing ability. It's rather a shambles. But then I remember reading an interview with David Gilmour in a guitar magazine back in the '90's where he said he felt he never had much guitar skill either. He always tried to find ways to cheat (Hey You is a famous example where he purposely re-strung & re-tuned the guitar so he could just go up & down with those arpeggios - which he then pointed out that every singe TAB he had ever seen for the song got it completely wrong because of that fact LOL). I guess I sort of do the same thing. Bury my guitar insecurities in effects & interesting tricks.

    But then, a very wise friend of mine (@caterwauler actually) pointed out to me once that often times we're our own worse critics. She's right on that score 😁 I'm often amazed (well, flabbergasted, actually) at the responses I get to my songs here on FAWM. I know it's a "Constructive Positive Place", but still - I'm aamzed people enjoy (and are amazed themselves) at my odd tracks. I'm VERY grateful that people enjoy my music. But I often can't understand why πŸ˜€

    See You In The Shadows…

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    @candle great, or interesting observation about "like" it comments.

    Actually, since I been here (time of joining a few years ago), - this is a first time I think I may be able to discuss that since goes sideways "here" to often. Meaning, - when I started to see, "i like that", (when joined and not immediately either), - and I was like, hmmm, really?, I felt I was getting "authentic" feedback. Then, I simply, asked, "why".
    - Then, I'd get all range of explanation, but, I "got" it; ranging from, "just like it dude" to, "never heard that modulation in combination with that instrumentation, orchestration" πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜€ hahhh!

    Then, I "felt" the "connection" occurred. And, it was not "Mom" πŸ˜‰ saying, "just love your work".

    My stuff is all, all over the place (focus, direction, path, inspirations, collaborations), and I fully realize it (like it, deliberate, prefer it - for now); and, all first pass one take and rarely if ever "re - Produced". I can see it re-done, or just "Performed"..., well, until one day I'm rich and famous, or run off from here for being to creative or artistic, ("different", not status quo, he[a]rd-ed), πŸ˜‰ and may then deny ever knowing any of you πŸ˜€ πŸ˜‰

  • @candle  3 weeks

    I know the feeling @ustaknow. I think following one's Muse leads to this sort of Artistic Chaos where anything is possible & every possibility sort of comes into play. Like you, I do one take (usually improv), live-to-tape with no overdubs & rarely do I go back & re-work a recording. I don't think I'll be "run out of town" for my musical/creative M.O. (we've got a lot of different mucians & artists in town - I mean, we've had gigs where the Folk Singer opens for the town's Metal Band & the crowd loves both, they just want to see/hear/experiænce live music, really). But, you never know LOL 😁

    See You In The Shadows…

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    What I find interesting, since never looked at any major corp, how-to play "course" is, - as in any lesson plan, (and it's been a while since I've put them out), but the course path is clearly laid out. The section titles are published. The, or a rubric is there. Also, an outcome statement. (Even a teaching statement of the place or individuals.)


    Well, I always retreat to, [me] - I want to play the guitar. ["teacher"] - here's the circle of 5ths.

    So, what happens?

    Like sheep or a child will, sits there and does what? What can one do with the circle of 5ths that teaches me to play the instrument, - the guitar? What's the Outcome Statement for, if this or when this and per the rubric, then this/that. Like directions to the closest gas station, - take the longer route, you'll use less gas not sitting in traffic in the shorter route (complicated analogy? πŸ˜€ hahhh, ino). But, that's the level of thought I would think that an instrument maker may offer that has purchased a decades old legacy.

    I "get", "Chunking" out of items of interest. However, in that websight, I don't see anyone "learning" Guitar, how to play the instrument. They may learn the simplest of "Riffs" to then sound like some popular song and feel they are playing a guitar, and buy one. However, they are playing "with" the guitar, not actually playing it, - big difference.

    Like Nora Jones interview w/Dan R. - "piano" lessons she hated passionately, until (in my words) musicians taught her how to play it, not with it, - "Notes" off a sheet of paper. Heck, play the radio, PBS station if hungry for jazz, classics, - call Nora for *her music she made while playing the instrument as a tool, not a Xerox machine.

    I can Xerox a Novel, - does not make me a writer πŸ˜‰ haahahahaha.

    - Not that I've thought much about it though πŸ˜€

  • @candle  3 weeks

    I think you have to look at Fender's goal for these online guitar lessons (or any other corp doing similar). I mean, at the end of the day (as you have said) their goal is to sell more instruments, right? So why not just teach the sheeple how to play Enter Sandman (or similar) & leave it at that? Sleep with one eye open, clutching your Stratocaster tight… that's their mantra, I would think πŸ˜‰ So if they can teach 10,000 teenagers how to play Enter Sandman (or similar) while selling them 10,000 guitars, amps, guitar straps, instrument cables, guitar cases, picks, guitar tuners, then they've just increased their Q1 profits & satisfied their shareholders. Doesn't matter if those 10,000 teenagers go on & actually learn to play the guitar (as opposed to playing with it, as you say). They've got their $$ & they're happy. Mission accomplished, I would say.

    See You In The Shadows…

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    @candle - oh, that is an interesting direction to discuss πŸ˜€

    Well, I can only consider what I know, over time and suppose.

    I do see you're good point. To that I'd say "yes", - generally speaking, in broad terms. However, I think, "me" not as they offer it. I'd likely, maybe, have a "5-level" get acquainted, get'em started curriculum.

    Then, "me", I'd likely offer a combination of my own philosophy, curriculum which some may handle and is strictly for "how to play the guitar, instrument", - and from there be a life long self teacher. However, if a large corp πŸ˜€ I'd combine the Berkeley stuff, with the Univ of Edinburgh one may sample either on Coursera and other there as well, - to be brief. So, it would be a stepped curriculum of the "me" thing, Songwriting (why else learn at all? πŸ˜€ ) and then well applied theory "Edinburgh" but only in that scope (not concert pianist, rote theory, sales and sight reading, classics analysis for the sake of it - pointless imo).


    Well, generally speaking, it is what I think the majority of folks "here" are (?); meaning, how many instruments and related devices do you own? 1/10,000 guitars (so to speak), OR 10 x 10,000 life long gas attacks to feed the need to artistically create and evolve.

    I have to say, but didn't, - I was actually "put off", so to speak by what Fender offered.

    Other analogies are, as with in my "culture" of life -
    - learned how to drive (1 guitar πŸ˜€ )
    - learned how to fix, fix up (Rolling Tool Chest with many drawers and tools)
    - learned to love "cars" and at one point, as a single person own several Bikes, and up to I think it was four cars/truck/trailer
    - Gas, oil, spark plugs, filters, etc.

    I have two vehicles now, - don't drive'em, fully "on the street" could if wanted to; and then the two very reliable daily drivers.

    As far a instruments, - I'd be embarrassed to say πŸ˜€ but no problem lending one if come to jam πŸ˜€

    But hey, I've said as much to... I'll start a new frame

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    I had an idea about how Gibson (how many times bought and sold as a company? πŸ˜€ ) engaged their warranty service and other related. Broadly speaking:

    To be brief without much detail I suggested they start a Gibson Owners Club "GOC" πŸ˜€ in which if belonged, every, pick a period, 30 - 90 days, you'd receive a guitar and could play it for 30 days or send it on, or back. If kept it, paid some great deal price for the well handled unit.

    It was a bit to "out of the box" possibly for that owner at the time. But, not remembering all the details without pulling the RFP there was a number of "Business" considerations that it supported.

    And, for a time, it seemed, per a factory floor conversation I had πŸ˜€ is what they were sending out anyway; parts missing, fully "wrapped" and not (the plastic peels off guards, pups, etc., etc.)

    Unrelated, but interesting, later time moment: then, I got a LP Jr from an authorized dealer in a flight case branded Gibson that contained, Factory Floor final setup snap-shots by that tech in the case, just prior to shipping, final check. It was when they offered the "robot tuners" no one likes πŸ˜‰ hahhh. You would not believe the price - my guess is was cost or minimally above, and that would likely be some set amount the dealer got for the sale.

    Why? I have no idea. I just get lucky with this stuff and folks reaching out. I love that guitar and learned to like the tuners, - now I "get" them and not a "dislike", to be sure, but not a "need" either.

  • @candle  3 weeks

    I hear ya on the curriculum idea, @ustaknow. I often think of Robert Fripp's Guitarcraft courses & how they're structured. I know a lot of people shy away from them because of his "New Standard Tuning", but the idea behind the course is well thought out. I've never taken it, myself - too afraid of finding out how bad of a musician I actually am πŸ˜‰ (Just kidding LOL). But your idea also resonates with me.

    As for the great deal - I've gotten a few of those over the years (tho, none really musically related LOL). It's nice when things work out like that, tho 😁

    See You In The Shadows…

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    (*)candle a buddy of mine sent this recently:

    And, related, but sideways πŸ˜€ -
    I had a kid come to me who said he wanted to "learn guitar"! I said, what does that mean to you? What's your objective. He said, "I want to learn Highway to Hell by AC/DC. That was it.

    So, AC/DC is a favorite among many and really appreciate Angus and his brother approach to guitar! And, truth be told, - not "hard" to do if remember, the then may become complicated with orchestration of his riffing if want to dup "him" (after decades, the same but diff, which I love as well, ala KRichards, "never played any song, same way twice").

    So, knowing the Kids parents and would be pissed at me for specifically teaching him that song and he know it, but did not care, - I said, I can teach you how to *easily teach yourself that song and any song you'd like to know. And, then I can teach you on "what" it is based, e.g. scale shape, chord progression. And then I can teach you how to then, based upon "that", - cover it YOUR way, not fully note for note. (Meaning, I have never liked "cover, tribute" bands. However, love, a performer that - *does it THIER way, - very very interesting and enjoyable. I can otherwise drip $1.50 in the juke box and here it fully "correct" πŸ˜‰ )

    The kid said?

    No thank you.

    I said?

    Best of luck to you.

    I don't need, what the range today? $20 - $150 that badly. Even when I did, - I didn't πŸ˜‰ (You can tell I am "that" way, correct? πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜€ ) My thoughts, are, my own πŸ˜€ hahhh!

    And so I was the ashehole that day! Which I am fine with.

    I'd say 99% of "the kids?" so to speak are that market niche. I think places like McDonals and BurgerKing do well. They make money! I'd own one if could afford to. However, oddly? to say, e.g., IRL when I wanted to open a Bar, or a PAWN shop, the wife said - no. And it was no. "Unintended" consequences of conscience I suppose.

    Applies to music?

    It might!

    Violent Games were not supposed to "cause"...

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    @candle a buddy of mine sent this recently... above the vid link.

  • @ustaknow 3 weeks

    So, the analogies may be hard for some to understand. However, we "needed" a middle ground in Music between the "Piano" teacher with ruler rapping across the knuckles for scales not learned (Nora Jones interview with DanR.), and easy bake oven templates (great to frame a thought!) as "Published" Muzak πŸ˜‰

    And, so back to the Beato vid to validate, or support my thoughts way before he complained about Fair Use Law not fairly applied by Google Corp, aka Big Brother πŸ˜€

    Tso, derUgo! πŸ˜€

  • @chipwithrow  3 weeks

    This is a super interesting thread.
    The first two piano teachers I had were old-school (no rapping my knuckles, though). Then my third, who by day was an accountant who worked with my dad, taught me Scott Joplin rags and how to improvise jazz.
    I took a handful of guitar lessons in high school - he was a good guy. Taught me Take It Easy, Your Cheatin Heart, I've Just Seen a Face, and Sitting in Limbo. I figured I could take it from there and self-taught up to what I know now.
    For banjo, I bought a Tony Trischka book/CD combo and followed it studiously. Tony was Bela Fleck's teacher - I had the pleasure of interviewing both gentlemen years ago ... but I wasn't a banjo player yet.
    I learned by the book how to pick passable bluegrass, but I've also developed my own self-taught style as well. But you have to pick regularly to keep skills sharp (at least I do) and now I only do it for FAWM or 50/90.
    Guitar and piano, on the other hand, come back to me easily even after a hiatus because those are skills I've developed over 40+ years. (I didn't start banjo until my mid 40s.)

  • @chipwithrow  3 weeks

    A couple years ago I taught myself ukulele - I found a chord chart poster and went from there.
    I have given ukulele and guitar lessons, but I'm quick to point out that I'm teaching from the way I learned and not how to read sheet music.
    One thing I have going for me is that I've been a teacher of many things - driver ed, reading, English, journalism, basketball, tennis, fitness, yoga - and knowing how to teach is just as important as knowing the subject matter. Maybe more so.

  • @fuzzy  2 weeks

    Well said, @chipwithrow.
    The ability to teach is definitely an underrated skill; you can know the material front to back and back to front, but if you can't effectively pass that information on to others then you have no business teaching, and at worst may turn the student away from their passion.
    When I was a youth I wanted to learn how to play bass guitar, but the teacher was so bad that I quit soon after starting and have never followed through on my teenage desire to play awesome bass solos. πŸ˜€

  • @gm7  2 weeks

    I was living in Ottawa and one summer I buddied up with a classic guitar player... He was studying the guitar for his music degree. a sponge I listen and watched him play but more importantly..he explained.the logic of chords and keys. Didn't understand all of it at the time but what I did retain has stayed with me .....that was 45yrs ago.
    BTW..he said practice helps too. lol

  • @ustaknow 2 weeks

    @chipwithrow yes, knowing how to teach is important. I think teaching, like taking up an instrument has to have a little "dna" mixed in with it too. I've worked with folks who'd attained PhD's in education, "how to teach" and like the Juliard Trained and degreed pianists, - they can't "Play" the piano, only Sheet Music on it.

    I am certain of your teaching skills from having engaged you for some time now. I knew that about you πŸ˜€ So, yes you are.

    - I don't think Fender πŸ˜€ knows how to teach πŸ˜‰ hahhh, part of my OP hahhh!

  • @ustaknow 2 weeks

    Back on "self assessment", - in part for me, that is where authentic Feedback is important. Why? Well, many people learn an instrument to sound like someone else. I believe if you seek it to learn the instrument, - your intend is to play it, your own stuff, or others as yours. It is more challenging to know assessment if you don't seek to Cover a Band, etc. It's easy to know if successful if you do.

    For me as well, "how I feel" when I play something, and how it feels to physically play it, is a BIG part of it.

    So, as analogy, I know if I make a peanut butter, mayonnaise and raw egg sandwich because I like it, I am sure I don't need to ask anyone if it's a good sandwich. I know it's just me that likes it, and that's fine πŸ˜€ It's not gonna be a big seller unless at the dog kennel πŸ˜€

    However, if I'd made a peanut butter, banana and marshmallow one on graham crackers, - I may need to ask if others may like it too, if never have seen one (so to speak). I know it might be "good", but? I'd need feedback and in context.
    - Meaning, for me, with "music", I play what I like and feels good. However, I have NO idea what level it's on, if "good" (whatever that is), and etc. I also, do not seek to sound like anyone and never did. I am sure I could, - but would become very bored, very quickly unless paid very well, - and that ain't happening πŸ˜€ !! hahhh. The originals ain't gett'n paid!

    So, if I can copy someone and really don't like it, for me, that's a waste of time and not assessment that has any meaning for MY stuff. So, back to the authentic and meaningful feedback.

    Nonetheless, - if even others think you suck, if you like it, - that's it πŸ˜€ And, many have been found as not sucking who just proceeded when others assured them they sucked! πŸ˜€

    - So, proceed!

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