NFTs - Non Fungible Tokens

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  • @thedutchwidows  7 weeks

    Anyone come across these before:

    I'm all for identifying new revenue streams for artists, but I can't get my head round this at all. If you buy one, presumably with actual money, do you then trade it? Or is it just an asset that becomes more valuable over time? Other than the vinyl, what are you getting that is tangible or physical? Or is it just a gimmick for bundling stuff together? Is this a good thing? It hurts my head.

  • @headfirstonly  7 weeks

    NFTs are the art world's equivalent of rolling coal. Insanely profligate energy usage, and 64% of it is sourced from fossil fuels. They will burn the planet. One artist's release of six artworks consumed more electricity in 10 seconds than the average EU citizen consumes in two and a half years.

  • @zecoop  7 weeks

    This may explain it?!? I am not sure, as I am currently in a meeting at work (can't you tell?) ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • @thedutchwidows  7 weeks

    A bad idea then! Seems like another plaything for those with money to burn...

  • @elesimo  7 weeks

    I agree with @headfirstonly, it's stupid idea that solves no problem and has a terrible environmental impact.

    The only cool thing about it is that in some platforms authors get a share of secondary transactions. So if I sell you something for $10 and you resell it for $20 I would get a part of your profit.

    I'd rather a see a platform where you charge your browser with cryptocurrency, and when you listen to music you make a micropayment to the author.

  • @candle  7 weeks

    The NBA has jumped on this with NFT Trading Cards. Rumour is that other major sports leagues in North America are looking at this as a new revenue stream (especially since they're losing millions in ticket sales because of COVID empty stadiums & arenas right now).

    It was only a matter of time before someone figured out how to do something like this & monetize it. Problem is the sheeple think it's the new cat's meow (pun intended). Welcome to the 21st century, folks!

    See You In The Shadowsโ€ฆ

  • @wrenarcher  7 weeks

    I heard a story about this on NPR just yesterday evening as I was driving home from work. Itโ€™s quite fascinating but the environmental impact of writing the code wasnโ€™t touched on at all. I had no idea it took the energy it does to create an NFT.

  • @vivalarayna 7 weeks

    See? This is when I start rooting for the asteroid. Flint still doesn't have clean drinking water, more people are facing eviction and homelessness than in a century, and we are *barely* holding onto the finest shreds of democracy, but we can put these resources into NFTs? (we meaning the makers, not FAWM) Imma go bang my head against a brick wall somewhere.

  • @candle  6 weeks

    You couldn't have summed up the state of the world any better @vivalarayna

    See You In The Shadowsโ€ฆ

  • @phenola 6 weeks

    +1 for the asteroid

  • @zecoop  6 weeks

    $500k for a tweet. I'm losing hope in humanity. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    *Jack Dorsey is accepting bids on the first-ever tweet made on the Twitter platform.
    *Tron founder, Justin Sun, currently has the highest bid of $500,000.
    *New bids will have to be placed at $550,000 or higher.

  • @metalfoot  6 weeks

    One sometimes longs for the simplicity of cash...

  • @zecoop  6 weeks

    Now up to $2.5M for the first tweet on twitter. Itโ€™s a bargain! ๐Ÿคฃ๐Ÿ˜‚

  • @elesimo  6 weeks

    Interesting article about NFTs here:

  • @ustaknow 5 weeks

    Art, abstraction, and the modern world, "today". Every day, is non-fungible, every orgasm, every meal, every song first time herd ๐Ÿ˜‰. Is it a bad idea? Is there such a thing? What if I say Apple, and "you say" Pie and in that moment an engineer working on the next great life saving thing (not working but reading a FAWM forum) thinks., 3.14159 and realized their mistake? Hmmm.

    The concept of "money" only works in that anyone who then agrees that for $1USD they'll do nothing, or mow your grass - fungible, to a degree. What else may they get for it? Is it equivalent-fungible? Silver? Gold? What is a 1oz Gold coin worth? Why?

    In the financial world there is an old story and true (they say ๐Ÿ˜€ ) of a poor fellow below deck on an old ship, hungry, - ate what he thought was an Onion, - nope, a "Tulip" bulb. Look up the "Tulip Wars", or "Animal Spirits", et alia, "Irrational exuberance" (another wonderful retold story). Value.

    Can a "dollar" be fungible, sure. How about for one mind blowing orgasm; is that, then fungible? Well, not "that", "one", and if with a "virgin" of any kind, well, no (first time left handed instead of right?).

    What I really find interesting is, one "nuke pulse" ๐Ÿ˜€ and my 1965 Ford Pickup, - fully analog and all my Tube equipment and knowledge, well, - my stock goes way up there ๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜€ How close are we, China, Iran, Iwalk (forever after)?

    Every FAWM is non-fungible, since wiped clean ๐Ÿ˜‰ -- SeA what I did there? You are all participating within a non-fungible, digital experience.

    Now, I can load mirroring software on my unix box and make an exact copy of the virtual tree, but, it will never be FAWM2021 ever again. And, we all own it. And, each, unique, - I assure you ๐Ÿ˜‰

    What's it worth?

    To you?

    Want another one?

    Oh, that may all be a bit to abstract, so as I say, therefor, - don't listen to me ๐Ÿ˜‰ WTF do I no, uno? ๐Ÿ˜€

    (All my songs are free, but you may purchase the NFT. What may that be worth, in the "modern" world, of "today"?)

  • @johnstaples  5 weeks

    Just read this thread and the articles and I remain kinda confused!

    I get the weirdness (and profanity) of a culture that would enable someone to be so rich they could casually spend millions on essentially nothing while poor people suffer.

    But what is the climate change/energy abuse angle? I would think something digital would consume far less energy than a tangible object like the boatloads we import from China every single day most of which end up in landfills in a fairly short period of time.

    How are these NFTs different than us posting here at FAWM? Or the endless supply of blog posts, tweets and videos that mostly no one reads or watches?

    I'm really curious about this aspect of NFTs. And, to be honest, the artist/entrepreneur in me is interested in NFTs as a potential opportunity!

  • @vomvorton  5 weeks

    @johnstaples this article is a great summary.

    It's absolutely horrifying. Any artist who gets involved with this stuff is never getting any more money from me, it's so grossly irresponsible, especially now.

  • @metalfoot  5 weeks

    @johnstaples NFTs are based on blockchain technology which is extremely processor and processing hungry, and that's where the energy abuse comes in. The hidden cost of the backend processing to create the NFTs is ridiculous (just like with bitcoin).

  • @doeeyes  5 weeks

    As with many things, the more I read about a new subject, the more depressingly it slides into the big picture of "We are living in the worst possible timeline" world:

    [One of] Cryptocurrencies' problem[s] was that availability was always limited by the energy needed in data mining. It was designed this way, but by people who understand maths, not the inbuilt idiocy of the human race.

    One of art's problems was that scarcity makes it feel more valuable. The art industry knows this very well.

    But put em together, and you have:

    (a) more wealth for those at the top, at the expense of a huge electricity burden; and
    (b) less volatility in a cryptocurrency, which again is used by ultra-rich people as a tax haven.

    Does it get any worse? Everything that's invented gets manipulated into a way to fuck the poor and fuck the world. It's depressing.

  • @johnstaples  5 weeks

    @vomvorton thanks for the link. I am starting to understand but I would still like to see a comparison between the environmental impact of NFTs and all of the other unnecessary crap we consume from places like China.

    Here in the USA people line up for miles to buy the latest iPhone (for huge $$$) that was manufactured (cheaply) in Chinese sweatshops powered by burning coal. Talk a walk from one end of a Walmart Supercenter to the other and you'll see a seemingly endless river of crap from China that no one needs. And when the next season starts much of that unsold crap goes straight into the garbage compacter.

    I am certainly not saying that one horrible habit (excessive consumerism) justifies yet another (NFTs). But I really want to understand how this new problem stacks up to existing waste, gluttony and excessive use of energy.

    The article you linked was very informative. And the author very passionate in arguing his opinion against NFTs. The site he referenced to "see the energy usage and emissions of individual NFTs" is not online any more; I was hoping to get more info there. In the message about removing the site it admits "CryptoArt is a tiny part of global emissions."

    While that is not the detailed answer I was seeking it was what I suspected. That doesn't mean I support or don't support NFTs or artists who use them. But I have to admit I still drive my gasoline-powered car. And I still heat my home from a fossil fuel powered electrical grid. And, unfortunately, I still buy some of that Walmart crap I do not need.

    I guess my final thought for the day (subject to change as I learn more) is NFTs are not nearly as big a threat to our planet as all of the other things we are already doing!

  • @vomvorton  5 weeks

    @johnstaples but you'd move to a more eco-friendly car / power system if you could, right? Fossil fuels are something we've all acknowledged need replacing as soon as possible, NFTs are something similarly terrible that is new and being introduced NOW, and when people look at the past and say things like "yep that was bad, but we've learned our lesson" - this is that. This is us, not learning our lesson.

  • @johnstaples  5 weeks

    @vomvorton yeah that is true. Honestly, every time I've bought a car in my adult life I have wished I could afford an electric. But paying the rent and insurance and etc. always won out and I wussed out and went for cheaper transportation option. And I hope I have conveyed I don't like any waste but my concern over things like these is whether there may be bigger targets I could focus my energy on.

    Lemme ask you a well-intentioned said "Any artist who gets involved with this stuff is never getting any more money from me". So I am just wondering if you apply that same standard to other forms of planet-unfriendly waste by artists you support? I dunno if you are a Radiohead fan but I did a quick search and found Thom Yorke actually admitted to being a hypocrite as he flies in "a private plane all over the world". In the summer of 2019 "some of the biggest names in the entertainment industry, including Katy Perry, Leonardo DiCaprio, Prince Harry, and even the former president, Barack Obama, all attended the Google Camp eco-party, taking, in combination, 114 private jets to the event."

    Please believe me I am NOT questioning your commitment or sincerity! But I think it is critical to integrate things like NFTs into the big picture as we consider their impact relative to the other things we are doing to our planet.

  • @vomvorton  5 weeks

    @johnstaples very much NOT a Radiohead fan, but I like to think that if I was, but if I was then I'd be disappointed by the above.

    The particular thing with NFTs is how unnecessary it seems. Even if I disapprove of Thom's private jet habit, at least I can see that it gets him around the world. The waste is excessive but the benefits are tangible

    With NFTs and other crypto-art stuff, the waste is huge and the benefits are... what exactly?

  • @radioovermoscow 5 weeks

    It's tulip mania, 2021 style - except at the end you don't get any flowers. A tiny minority will get rich for doing nothing and pay no tax, while everyone else who took part is taken for a ride,

  • @kable  5 weeks

    NFTs seem like a logical step for blockchain techniques, but since it's the flavor of the hour and a brand new practice (and also a challenge to explain), everyone's entering the hate train.

    Complaints I hear of their power inefficiency should be directed more towards traditional crypto, which has not only existed for far longer, but also uses 'proof of work' as a metric to verify the chain's integrity (though I hear that there is potential to replace this metric with something significantly more efficient). That, and I don't think anyone has a clue yet how to verify proof of ownership of the 'hashed' object in the first place. That's perhaps an even bigger problem for the technology.

    My stance is it's not the place of NFTs to fix the problem with power GENERATION (for instance, what if I hash my brand new NFT on a solar farm?). Eventually, I hope that humankind can utilize nuclear power to sever dependency on fossil fuel, but that's not a problem for NFTs to solve.

  • @johnstaples  5 weeks

    @vomvorton yes, I also do not see the benefits nor fully understand the whole thing!

    The one thing that interested me is the ability for an artist to "sell" a painting or a song to some rich fuck who gets bragging rights to owning it while transferring a bit of his wealth to the artist. If we are going to always have mega rich fucks at the top of the food chain, and apparently we are, it seems it would be good to find another way for them to share some of the wealth.

    I'm gonna be really honest and admit that if some rich fuck were to hit me up to own my entire catalog of songs for, say, $100,000 or more, I'd accept that offer in a heartbeat and maybe find another hobby or just write some more songs! Would that make me a sellout? Yes, yes it would! But I think I could live with that!

  • @elesimo  5 weeks

    NFTs: "You know how things used to be scarce and hard to replicate, but now that everything is digital we can make infinite copies of something for free? Well, what if we brought BACK scarcity and made digital things unique, all while making the whole world burn?"

  • @tcelliott  5 weeks

    Just read The Reverend Horton Heat is releasing a song per NFT or whatever...

    I donโ€™t really have an opinion but I find it humorous that the biggest complaint from musicians has been the devaluation of the arts and now a technology comes around that will โ€œsolveโ€ at least partially, this problem and we are bashing it out if turn.

  • @zecoop  5 weeks

    Roger Dean - the amazing album artist of many Yes albums among many others has announced he will be jumping into the NFT fray.

  • @dzdandcunfsd  5 weeks

    @tcelliott I have no opinion about them one way or the other either, but also getting a chuckle myself, but what's the internet for if not nitpicking everything to death.

    Not knocking anyones opinions here, but I also get a kick out of hearing people rally to save the environment using a disposable phone/computer and the internet to do it. I'll listen to someones opinion on that matter that lives completely off any electrical grid and lives in a home that's climate controlled geothermally, but I only know a few people willing to walk that walk and they don't talk about it ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • @tcelliott  5 weeks

    Let me clarify that I realize there are real concerns. I think I was a bit dismissive and shouldnโ€™t have.

  • @elesimo  5 weeks

    @dzdandcunfsd the problem is that when we talk about the environmental impact, we mean s completely different scale from using a smartphone to connect on the internet.

    We're talking spending the energy that whole countries spend, just to generate these tokens. Bitcoin uses more energy that many countries. Ethereum as well.

    Some people are going to make a lot of money from this. Most people are going to lose money. And everyone in the world will pay the price.

    I'm an early adopter of technology. I love thinking about new ways technology can help artists. But I don't think this is one of them.

  • @ustaknow 5 weeks

    - As you, yourself, as tent dweller knows about off grid, I did, - other than electricity since, - where I was it was the greener solution ๐Ÿ˜€ hahhh, - ironic. Dropping a generator in the water supply I had with plenty of Head, if even "free" from surplus, was not. So ๐Ÿ˜€

    In escellaring order of stuff ๐Ÿ˜€ :
    The typical wireless router wattage is around six, and the most demanding models only draw about 20. At ten cents per kWh, that six-watt router will use about a cent and a half's worth of electricity per day, adding up to $5.26 per year.

    The average electricity cost in the US is 13 cents per kWh; this means that it costs 13 cents to run something that consumes 1000 watts for one hour. To calculate the cost of running your PC at full load for one hour, you need to divide the watt usage by 1000 and multiply the result by your kWh.

    Even at the maximum, a large laptop drawing 90 watts for 12 hours would cost less than 11 cents per day at the ten cents per kWh rate.

    EPRIโ€™s study also examined the energy consumption of laptop computers and found the annual average to be 72.3 kWh. At ten cents per kWh, that comes to $7.23. Add that to the $5.26 for a router and $1.20 for a tablet and you come to a total of $13.69 per year, or $1.14 per month.

    A new report from the Department of Energyโ€™s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory figures that those data centers use an enormous amount of energy โ€” some 70 billion kilowatt hours per year. That amounts to 1.8% of total American electricity consumption. At an average cost of 10 cents per kwh, the annual cost of all that juice is on the order of $7 billion.

    Energy used by a Data Center, look at:
    (Cost never mentioned, but, do the math)

    So many studies of costs with real, facts, data, not feelings about supposed data:

  • @ustaknow 5 weeks

    (Yes, those long URL's are broken, oh well, - figure it out with other then, such tech savvy folks anyway, - again, oh well ๐Ÿ˜€ )

    Oh, and keep in mind all the above was less than 5 min work, random, non-vetted internet hits (and all on the Net is fact as we know ๐Ÿ˜‰ and we can all find our own facts that we prefer to have, our own facts, indeed).

    So, remember, to make a conclusion of some kind at some point, I do not, I'm a Belter so, screw Mars and Earth we'll get our own galaxy:

    - Nevertheless ๐Ÿ˜€

    FAWM is a NFT and you are here and some use non-real musical instruments, even ๐Ÿ˜ - some play real ones; so they get a Tax, virtue signaling credit there ๐Ÿ˜€

    So, again, REMEMBER:
    Defund the Internet!!!

    It's a fascist tool of opression of the masses, - all they get us to do is stay at home, order stuff from China, smoke our now legal Pot, get liquor deliveries and watch CNN ๐Ÿ˜‰ See, it's working!!! ๐Ÿ˜€ hahhh... it's a conspiracy I tell yah! Umm, uhh, the big orange disaster?, did it!!! Invented the Internet! OMG! It's so bigly!

  • @tcelliott  5 weeks

    Apparently RHH is discovering some problems with NFT releases

  • @dzdandcunfsd  5 weeks

    @elesimo I'd agree. I can't see this going anywhere other than for a few peope. I hopped on the bitcoin train pretty early fully out now, but mostly because it was a big FU to the institutions that just make money by just having and regulating who has money. The US alone uses roughtly 1/4th of the worlds energy consumption. It's not from here people on this site, but I just get pissy when I hear people crying to save the environment while not willing to turn off the air conditioner.

  • @johnstaples  5 weeks

    @dzdandcunfsd I share your feeling that people are sometimes hypocrites, wasting energy on one hand while complaining about energy waste they don't benefit from. I don't think that applies to anyone here but the example I gave earlier of celebs and politicians, feigning concern for climate and then using private jets, certainly applies!

    Another angle to the larger issue of fossil fuel burning I have a problem with is when large, prosperous, first-world countries try to force poor, developing nations to stop using their natural resources in the quest to lift themselves up.

    I of course agree we must stop burning fossil fuels. Otherwise we are gonna be able to learn about the surface of Mars right here on Earth!

    But the countries who prospered after burning their own resources while also importing a shit ton from others need to step up and assist anyone they ask to stop using natural resources.

    A related point is the destruction of the Amazon rainforest. If you live there it must be a hard pill to swallow when the USA tries to stop you from working in the local lumber industry!

    I'd like to see those countries with means purchase the promises to protect the Amazon.

  • @dzdandcunfsd  5 weeks

    @johnstaples I agree, and that example you gave is what got me all ticked off ๐Ÿคฃ There's a lot of that going around, kind of reminds me of the I should be having brunch right now people.........oh I'm sorry did your brunch get disturbed because you all of a sudden care about issues? LOL please by all means go back to the fairy tale from whence you came hahaha.

    But, yeah........the NFT's things do all and all seem pretty ridiculous in so much as "one of a kind" kind of looses its luster when anyone can copy/paste a .jpg, but don't let me tell someone how to spend their millions ๐Ÿ˜†

  • @candle  5 weeks

    I sort of liken the "Save The Planet while I drive my car" crowd to the "Privacy is my right but I use Google & have Social Networking accounts" crowd. They feel righteous because they say they stand for something - but their actual actions have absolutely nothing to do with their supposed virtuous beliefs.

    Says the Sartrian Nihilist (me). So take that for what it's worth (i.e. we're all hypcrites on some level).

    See You In The Shadowsโ€ฆ

  • @adforperu  5 weeks

    Well this thread turned a little bit smug and nasty. It's impossible to live in a capitalist society with opposing views and not be a hypocrite I'm afraid. It'd be like telling someone who is not leftwing that they can't use the NHS. Who do you think is morally better; someone who is climate conscious who tries to reduce their footprint where possible (bearing in mind that individual action barely makes a difference, it's government or corporations that are fucking up the planet here), or those that scoff at these people and waste energy willy-nilly to, I dunno, make their point? The irony of calling people sanctimonious, yet saying their opinion is worthless because they're not the perfect human.

  • @johnstaples  3 weeks

    @adforperu I just reread the whole thread and I see mostly thoughtful discussion from all sides. And I personally learned a lot here!

  • @johnstaples  3 weeks

    For anyone still here and needing a better explanation check the SNL video in this article!

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