Public Service Message Regarding Collaborations...

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  • @johnstaples  Dec 2017

    Before you collaborate with someone at FAWM (or 50/90 or anywhere else for that matter) you should discuss what that collaboration means!

    - is it a true, official and legal co-write in which all parties own an equal amount of the finished song?

    - is it "just for fun" and after the challenge all rights of ownership revert to each collaborator for the part they contributed?

    - is someone contributing a performance but not lyrics or melody? this might be considered a collaboration but it would not typically be considered a co-write

    - or is it something else entirely?

    I know it may be a bit of a FAWM buzzkill but discussing this and answering the questions beforehand will ensure everyone is happy with the outcome!

    I have always liked how @writeandwrong posts her songs. She is crystal clear about whether or not she wishes to collaborate and, in the event of a collaboration, what that means once the challenge is finished. Maybe she can check in on this issue.

  • @cblack  Dec 2017

    Actually, I was just wondering about this the other day. I've never really done a collaboration before. Thanks for the post. 😀

  • @writeandwrong  Jan 2018

    Aww, thanks, @johnstaples! I have a statement on my FAWM profile page, so anyone who is interested is welcome to use and edit as they feel fit for their own needs. Just because one person may not care or think it is important, it's good to be respectful of the other collaborators involved as they may be doing different things musically outside of FAWM. I also feel before posting a tune outside the walls of FAWM, communicate and agree with the other collaborators on that, too. FAWM and 50/90 are for rough drafts, ideas, not finished products, so some people may not feel comfortable having their stuff posted externally until it fits a certain criteria. It's nice when we all are respectful to enjoy FAWM to its fullest!

  • @scottlake  Jan 2018

    John, thanks for posting this. Never was an issue for me until 2015 when I offered up some lyrics and a fellow FAWMer made a killer song out of it. Way more than I expected. So good I would like to release it. But we never made any considerations ahead of time like what you listed here.

  • @andygetch  Jan 2018

    1/3/18 EDITED: Good topic. No delusion here of income from my songwriting. FAWM and similar challenges are "just for fun"for me. Still, I have a deep respect for my friends who derive/depend on income from music. I only post a song (even on FAWM) after getting the okay from my collaborator.

    I would suggest it is also good to be clear about the process. Who starts it, who arranges, and posts it? How much of a time investment is expected?

    Janis Ian's webpage (without the 'https://" and direct link) on co-writing is most comprehensive and helpful to me (@tcelliott pasted the other three I previously posted, also good stuff, but this one covers it best for me):

    Copy and paste into your search
    www.janisian.com/reading/cowriting.php

  • @tcelliott  Jan 2018

    EDIT: @burrsettles So I copied and pasted the links and they are being truncated on the site. Looks like a FAWM issue.

    Hey, Andy. Thanks for sharing. But your first and third links are going to a 404 error page. I think the first is because her site is in transition. The third looks truncated. Maybe it is suppose to be this one?
    http://www.musicproducersforum.com/20...

    And the fourth is just to the BMI homepage and looks like it was truncated as well. could it be this article you were linking?
    https://www.bmi.com/news/entry/the_do...

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    @tcelliott both of your links got truncated too and do not go where you intended! 😏 Interesting is the link @andygetch provided about cowriting etiquette does seem to work.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    I sure wish @burrsettles could find time to overhaul the website. Also, it sure would be nice if it had archives that stayed online like 50/90 instead of deleting everything yearly. New Year's Day wishes!

  • @tcelliott  Jan 2018

    Yeah, I've already edited the post and tagged Burr. I'll put the links below without the http:// bit so that anyone who wants to can copy and paste them into their browser:

    www.bmi.com/news/entry/the_dos_and_donts_of_co-writing

    songtown.com/co-writing-etiquette-songwriters/

    www.musicproducersforum.com/2015/01/10/collaborative-songwriting-5-invaluable-tips/

  • @kevinemmrich  Jan 2018

    If I put music to someone's lyrics during FAWM, I "assume" that folks can take their lyrics and go in a different direction after fawm -- no strings attached. Any other form of collaboration or co-writing is 50/50 owned (unless an arrangement is made ahead of time). To me, that keeps it real simple.

  • @writeandwrong  Jan 2018

    But that's where issues arise, @kevinemmrich . What is the person you are collaborating with assuming? FAWM or not, a cowrite is a cowrite, so unless otherwise stated, legally, it goes by default, not what you are assuming for FAWM.

  • @kevinemmrich  Jan 2018

    @writeandwrong : I don't consider me putting music to someone's lyrics to be "co-writing". However, if they consider it a co-write, then I won't have problems with that either. Basically, I am taking the approach that the other party gets to make the decisions. I don't collaborate much, but the adding music to lyrics is the only gray area that I see -- so I leave it open.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    I've had collaborations that were simple and others that were complex. The complexities arose when there wasn't clear communication - either on my part or the other party's part. I would say "here - take my half and do your part" when I really wasn't ready to release complete control of my part even for a collaboration. I'm not experienced in working with others so I don't know how to collaborate. I don't know that I have any advice to add here - just some of my experiences in the last 2 fawms. Although I have a habit of overthinking things, I ask your patience for a few moments and I think you'll see where I'm going.

    For me, going forward, a collaboration is a relationship, short term or long term - minutes or years, but it's a communion or a union -(in my reality at least) Communication is essential before any collaboration begins - for ME. That's not to say I don't love surprising others or being surprised with a collaboration tune in my email with something like "I had to complete this song - here you go! enjoy!" those are amazing too - but I feel those are private at first - it's a gift given - I don't take the gift I gave (without any permission and discussion) and monetize it all over the digital web - and I'm offended when others do. My music is my art. I ask others respect it as I respect theirs. I think the golden rule is really the only rule you need - Treat others the way you want to be treated.

  • @kc5 Jan 2018

    Quite frankly, the first thing I would do if considering a collaboration is go to the person’s profile and learn as much about them as is available. If there is a statement on their profile that expresses how they do collaborations, barring further communication, that should become enough of a default so that you don’t have to label every song you post. It may be that you never have intentions to collaborate, but do so out of interest expressed by another. Do you have to say so on every song or lyric post? Isn’t some of this for fun? If you over-technicalize everything, well, might as well collaborate in other forums where that’s clearly expected. My concern isn’t for the ones who’ve had a Year or more here to see how things are done, it’s for the new people who expect it to be safe here. Prime targets for opportunists. It’s not right. Check their profile and for integrity’s sake, if you think it should be a 50/50, long-timers, you say so. Don’t expect that

  • @kc5 Jan 2018

    Don’t expect that they’ve been privy to all the forums you’ve belonged to and commented the matter in. Give the yearlings a break and help protect them.

  • @writeandwrong  Jan 2018

    @kc5 , just saying so in your profile is sufficient, but if there's a difference in one of the songs, just put the change for that specific song in the liner notes. I usually do this by just saying, "Okay, this is clearly not going beyond the confines of FAWM, not using for anything else" and that easily means do whatever with it, don't really care lol

  • @tcelliott  Jan 2018

    @writeandwrong - What happens when I do "whatever"with it, like it and then after FAWM want to use it for something? Your soundboard lets me know that I cannot use our collective collaboration after FAWM, but your song message implies otherwise. Is there a difference?

    I'm just asking for clarification. I don't use the for FAWM only decrees but I completely understand how others might want to.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    Keep a boilerplate message with your intent as a text file and paste it into your profile AND your songs. Or, if you don't care, don't worry about it!

  • @chipwithrow  Jan 2018

    Interesting thread. I don't do many collabs - none last FAWM, four last 5090. Usually, it's me adding music to someone's lyrics, so I guess a 50/50 arrangement. Partner and I have never discussed any business logistics. I know one 5090 collaborator posted our song in a few places (I was the vocalist on that one). Again, no deal beforehand.
    I've appeared as a guest on a friend's album, and had guest players on mine, back in the days when we did printed runs of CDs. Probably we should have discussed credit and compensation beforehand, since we sold the music, but any money made was beer money - and domestic-draft-beer-at-happy-hour money at that.
    I suppose if a partner had a cool idea for pitching a song in a way to make money, I might consult my patent attorney brother. But just as likely I wouldn't trouble him.
    I wonder how many of us are at the level at which such concerns have to be considered - I know I'm not. And I'm not at all belittling those at are - I admire greatly people like my wife with a head for business (and we're business co-owners).

  • @kathym  Jan 2018

    I'm sure this forum will be of great service to a lot of fawmers. I've done a few collabs IRL and a few on fawm. It really is important to discuss the partnership ahead of time because you never know when that next great song is going to come and how far it can go.
    One of my dear friends that I wrote with a few times passed away, but his family knows how good friends we were, so I don't anticipate any problems with recording those songs. In fact, they are pleased to help keep his music going.

  • @kathym  Jan 2018

    One more point that I'd like to make is that if you have a theme, title, phrase, whatever that you absolutely LOVE, you might want to think twice before entering into a collab, because that thing could get changed during the compromise process. No two songwriters think exactly alike, so your idea might end up a bit off the course you had in mind.

  • @devin  Jan 2018

    Great thread, and it is more relevant than you might initially think.

    I know of several FAWMers that have vented to me that their co-writer published and is selling their collaboration(s) for (unshared) profit.

    As mentioned, there are several things to consider:
    - writing/creating something (words and or melody, in this case)
    - performing, recording, mixing, mastering the co-write
    - mechanical reproduction & distribution
    - broadcast performance
    - live performance

    For film/TV, there can also be $$ generates when your music is synchronized to other art... whether or not the finished work is released. So your killer tune might have scored the fight scene in Kill Bill vol MCXVII... and someone made money even though the movie was cancelled before release.

    As the OP said, clarify and reach (written) agreement before starting the fun part, so there isn’t any buzz kill when it’s time to shine. It can be a real (expensive) pain to track down someone who represented your work a

  • @devin  Jan 2018

    *oops!*

    ... as their own.

    I can dig up some contracts with musicians & music supervisors if you want me to blot out the names and provide examples of agreements that have stood up over time.

  • @devin  Jan 2018

    Not to hog the thread, but the cleanest way to establish ownership is to agree on who will register the song with their Performing Rites Organization.

    Inside there, you can assign the ownership split(s). This is insanely important for broadcast/distribution royalties on the backend of film/TV.

    The cautions here are:
    - getting flakey musicians to actually register with a P.R.O. (“Seriously bro... fill out the form so we can collect!”)
    - it elevates your exposure to making money with music to the various Revenue agencies. So you might fly under the radar selling your CD off the stage or at the convention, but now there’s a semi-public record of you making $ off your music.

    It’s another way to put you on the radar.

  • @ajna1960  Jan 2018

    Hey @devin great post(s) 😀
    One little thing, both or all co-writers can register their songs with their respective PROs. eg I register it in Ireland and maybe SWG registers it in the USA. It doesn't matter.

  • @ajna1960  Jan 2018

    As a lyricist, for the last few years I have put a disclaimer/collab info text at the bottom of my profile and my song text, as I know many don't go to read the profile when asking to collab on a lyric I may have posted. It's very similar to @writeandwrong 's text. It doesn't seem to put folks off collabing, and things are always agreed BEFORE we start the collab 😀
    The text helps me avoid the unpleasant situations that I have been in a couple of times before I started using the text 😞

    And if I use the song outside of FAWM, and it's lucky enough to make money, all profit is always shared equally 😀

    PS I adore FAWM and look forward to it from December onwards ! It's my place to go nuts 😉 I am chomping at the bit as they say !

  • @tiller2  Jan 2018

    @devin If you'd like to share any examples of a contract to share ownership of a song, I'd love to get them for comparison purposes.

  • @ajna1960  Jan 2018

    @tiller2 and anyone else - I also have co-writer agreement contracts I'm happy to share. Although mine are aimed at people writing together in the film/tv/other media business. They would fit other scenarios, but some of the clauses are aimed at that specific arena.
    @devin I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours 😉 seriously, I'd love to see how your co-writing agreement compares to mine please 😀

  • @devin  Jan 2018

    That’s a deal! 😀

    I will be at the home office in a few days, and we can swap stories then.

    And great point @ajna1960 about registering in different countries.

    I can’t wait for February!

  • @writeandwrong  Jan 2018

    @tcelliott It would just default to regular copyright law because really nothing else was established, and I'm accepting of that, and as was mentioned in this thread by @devin, if you are with a PRO, you can register the tune on your personal account.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    So, if a new Fawmer joins and engages one of the SongGames here with many participants, throws in 5 words from a word salad generator, they then own "50%" of it with full discretion, --from what I am reading in all of this, as-is. And there is allot here, (and other locations, since this thread is truncated, not consolidated “here”-here) Anyway, or if a hundred folks participate they then own n% yet with full discretion of the entire work product.

    I thought I read here some may use that as primer for their own work (the large collaborative games), --however I don't remember reading how to "credit" it, if even as “influence” if not derivative.

    ---- I'm curious to understand that, above.

    And, pending the cumulative follow-up if that affects anything "here" given all the caveats. The one understanding “here” that I went by when "new" here, and not that long ago, not really, is that --”what happens in FAWM stays in FAWM (old Vegas jingle, to "credit" that 😉 ).

    If that common knowledge-ism, as I saw it then and sans any "mentor" here is not the case, --I see endless complications if left as-is.

    However, my understanding of all of this could be entirely useless, --and so I comment here now 😀

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @ustaknow exactly. This is why I've pulled back this year - collabs are on a case by case basis for me going forward.

  • @kevinemmrich  Jan 2018

    @ustaknow : Luckily since there is no reasonable chance to make any money on all this stuff, worrying about % ownership is not that important. If you enjoy getting involved in the songgames, then it should be full steam ahead. I don't worry about collaborations and where they might go -- but if the other party does, then I respect their wishes.

  • @aesthetic72  Jan 2018

    Excellent thread. About to go solo for the first time so I’m interested in collabs.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    @aesthetic72, I just listened to your song Back to Me and it is ace! Lovely vocals!! Keeping an eye on you this year! 😀

  • @songsville  Jan 2018

    The other approach is starting something. Here I make a lyric or a track or just the bare bones of an idea with a specific fawmer in mind. Then I approach them and if they think it's a goer, we are back and forth with tracks and during that time then there's plenty of emails in which the terms can be agreed.

    Oh who am I kidding? 😀 I've never spoken about terms in any of the 30+ fawm collabs I have done. It's obvious and we are all grown ups. "Let me know if you want to publish or perform our work, OK? I'll do the same. Thanks."

  • @songsville  Jan 2018

    The other approach is starting something. Here I make a lyric or a track or just the bare bones of an idea with a specific fawmer in mind. Then I approach them and if they think it's a goer, we are back and forth with tracks and during that time then there's plenty of emails in which the terms can be agreed.

    Oh who am I kidding? 😀 I've never spoken about terms in any of the 30+ fawm collabs I have done. It's obvious and we are all grown ups. "Let me know if you want to publish or perform our work, OK? I'll do the same. Thanks."

  • @devin  Jan 2018

    @songsville I remastered our last collab to 48KHz, because the music library that wants it said that’s the only format Disney will use.

    😁

  • @mdavisto  Jan 2018

    For what it's worth, I think the best way to collab is equal split. Nothing wrecks a friendship faster than getting pissy over who did what where, or forcing bits in just to say you did something. Equal splits means everyone can chill out and just do what comes naturally on the day.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    What gets lost some 40 posts later in this truncated thread is that, -- people are not doing so "in an adult like manner". No, -- it's just done! And then later, as happens they find out. The Web is vast, but nearly impossible to hide within.

    Or more specifically as is the real life concern that re-started this, -- clearly, (clearly), a FAWMer said, "what happens in FAWM stays in FAWM" and nevertheless they find their work somewhere, no Credits, possibly changed or represented in a manner they would rather not have it Branded.

    Or again even more specifically, what re-started all this (in this truncated thread), and was put to bed, resolved, -- was that someone did, as I call it, "work for hire" backing music as per the Artists music and already written lyrics. Anyone as studio musician or otherwise Consultant understands "Work for Hire"? I can play chop sticks for my song or let you within an artist community of teaching and learning, --but that does not give you authorship to my chop sticks. Heck, you'd have to Lic it to play it! For "here", means here, what part of ~ for here only ~ is gray?

    Considering the recent issue of here, --they did not collaborate the lyric or melody or vocals and for some reason thought that they did so for some mistaken reason? (saying they were pro level now),--collaborate on *all of the copyrightable aspects of lyric, melody/music, performance. I happen to know this was not so because I was with that Author in the music forum I own/ran the year *prior when all that was done. This FAWM-ling Author--brought it here, with me, their FIRST FAWM to engage as something to do, --if you-all can remember being "new", here?

    All was engaged in the very well known FAWM thesis --14/28, and what happens here, is for here, --unless otherwise stated, or in an adult like manner is felt out, nicely.

    As I said, when this was initiated in FB, this was actually all put to bed; resolved in an adult like FAWM-ily manner.

  • @songsville  Jan 2018

    @devin Cool, god job. Oh, and you know that other collab we did? Adele dropped by and wanted it for her new album. But she wanted to change your immortal lyric "Oft-sung, the fragrant hippo epitaph rescinded gently upstream" and instead sing "I like puppies".

    Of course I told her that you would never for a nanosecond consider compromising your artistic integrity just to be on a multi-platinum disc, so I sent her packing as I knew that would be what you wanted ...

  • @lvgd09 Jan 2018

    @johnstaples you mention "- is someone contributing a performance but not lyrics or melody? this might be considered a collaboration but it would not typically be considered a co-write"

    By definition lyrics with melody is the song so I would agree. That said, I use to work with Luke Adro and I always wrote the music bedtrack first (includes instrumental hooks). Then he added vocals which include the melody. What's interesting about this is where does that leave me? Without me, there is no song and technically it is the melody and lyrics that make it a song. Luke and I agreed that it was 50/50 and that never was an issue. Sadly, I can't find Luke and get permission to sell our Garden of Ash music. I just let it go and so here we are again making new songs. Too bad about that GOA music because I think some people would like (buy?) it.

  • @lvgd09 Jan 2018

    @songsville said "Let me know if you want to publish or perform our work, OK? I'll do the same. Thanks."

    Sadly, I lost contact with my collaborator. He could have died for all I know. So I have over 100 collabs with him and don't know what happened to him. He use to come in here (2008) and shortly after that, I had lost contact with him. I have our songs from 2004-2008 that have never been released. That said, I couldn't sell an Elvis Presley record. So they sit in my collection unreleased...probably forever. I don't think it would matter though because I have sold zero records. It just bugs me that I had put so much work into that music and it was all high quality (no mp3) and I can't even sell it (try to sell it).

    Does anybody think I should go ahead and release that music on Google Play? It's been nearly ten years since we spoke. He's on the other side of the world. I tried multiple times and no response. I'm serious about this guys and the music only need be published (Google Artist Hub). I mixed and mastered that stuff a long time ago. Thanks

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    Also, can we address the "cheating issue" that occurred in 50/90, where the person set up the "Random Collab" exclusively so they could collaborate with someone who had not been willing to collaborate with them before that. I know I'm probably the only person upset by this, but I really felt betrayed and hurt when I found out. FAWM can't have that kind of people worming around. This is why I don't want to collaborate with anyone, to be perfectly honest. 50/90 and FAWM were supposed to be safe places - but we have users who don't care to keep it that way - only to use it for their personal gain. I have trust issues. This selfish act to force someone to collab with them is really not excusable - and it hurts twice as bad that this person is getting positive reinforcement and attention for what they did. So are we all just in it for ourselves now? and anything goes, no matter who it hurts or why? Thank you. I needed to get that off my chest. And by the way, I can't even bring myself to think about collabing this year. I don't know who I can trust anymore.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    @lvgd09, regarding ownership, my comments were just referring to standard practice. You can and should have whatever agreement you and your collaborators prefer. In your case it sure sounds like you were a cowriter since you started the songs. Personally, I am way more impressed by bands who simply give all members a writing credit. My feeling is, if the lead guitarist comes up with the signature riff or the drummer creates a key solo these folks deserve a writing credit regardless of whether someone else wrote lyrics and melody separately!

    On your issue of not being able to find your collaborator, this is a perfect example of why we should formalize these collaborations before they occur! In this case I'd say release the songs giving shared credit to your collaborator and don't worry about it.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    Hey @brrrse -- double post Internet Browser snafu, same as below.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    Hey @brrrse -- I know something happened, but never knew what. However, I do tend to feel for people, anyone, like me, don't like me, argue with me, love/hate our President/Christians... doesn't matter to me so long as I don't have to have a Trust issue with that person. --Well put.

    So, while I can't speak to a specific incident, I am always in favor of the only real Moderator that seems to exist online anywhere, -- what we do/don't tolerate. --If I can consolidate your comment in other words.

    I "think" (?) 😀 ... yes, I think, that a community like "fawm" will/has only survived if the general group think, or group formation culture has specific mores/folkways for ANYONE, like them or not, like what one person says or not.

    I was so put off by some of what I've seen, I too was not going to engage for a while, instead put up BBFawmer in my profile. It was only intended for myself and others who felt or may come to feel apprehensive here.

    One thing I am 100% sure of, things go in cycles. However, I have witnessed entire Bulletin Board Systems die... you can find them now, like embalmed corpses in the large sea of Internet Byte Heaven floating there untouched for 10+ years.

    So, this is me "talking" about it, -- for a positive FAWM-ily outcome which I'll say again WAS how this situation [@kc5 ] was resolved but not left alone for some reason. And so we have ongoing discussion in truncated threads, --part of the element working against a 14/28 "simple" self rewarding challenge.

    And so I start my personal revolt for trust, and launch BBFawmer 😝 --party of two so far 😉

    -- You? 😀

    Hey, @brrrse --no matter what, you'll be OK, so long as folks like us are not to "group-thinked" into silence, or "afraid" of the Trolls or Humiliators who persist nonetheless, -- sans moderation/self-mod!

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    @brrrse, I don't know the background of what happened but sorry to hear you were upset by someone at 50/90. During my 5 years here (and at 50/90) I have seen very few issues like this. Every other forum I have ever used has like 100 times more problems. I remain absolutely astounded at what an awesome community FAWM-50/90 is! So my suggestion would be try and move on and chalk that experience up to miscommunication or maybe someone being a jerk and just avoid that person. If you want to collaborate here there are tons of good people to work with. Or maybe just go solo this time around. Either way I hope you have an awesome FAWM!

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @ustaknow I know the guy who wrote one of the first BBS system codes for a six pack of beer way back when - he's far from famous now but I watched many BBS Empires crumble to dust - who wants text when there was cartoons you could control!! anyway, not missing your point - just giving a fist bump - I see you.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    @brrrse Yes, those were the days! No one knew what language to use or even how clean ones html had to be.

    I remember all the "browser wars", the "hot" debate of if "Java" was it as viable middle-ware solution. And, we're now back where we started, --"just make sure I can read my Dilbert in the morning", as I remember one VP's concern 😀 hahhh.

    I remember people LAUGHING at me five years prior to being the "new" technology of the future when I offered to build web sites for "free" since folks WOULD be going to school online, shopping online, "living" online. NOOOOoooooo, that'll never happen! 😝

    O M G -- I was paid obscene amounts of money to "code" html (let alone so many others) "manually" 😀 hahhhh... -- I'll stop. "The good'ole days".

    Thanks, it's nice to get a fist pump every decade or so! Thank you.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @ustaknow scribbling basic and html code on any scrap of paper I could find and saving them up until I could get to a computer and make magic. empty cigarette packs, napkins, margins of books. They told us that was the future and that would be our careers. Now they teach html in preschool - and we're too old to learn anything else. *sigh* I guess this is where I stand up and yell "Get off my lawn, you damn kids while shaking my fist menacingly? 😀

  • @lvgd09 Jan 2018

    @johnstaples Thanks, and I seriously doubt Luke cares if I release the music or not. Luke and I never wanted to do the promotion part. In some ways, I'm glad that music is in purgatory. The other side of me says, "We were pretty good". That said, without a live band Garden of Ash is dead. I can't play that music without Luke....no way. We talked about bringing in band members for a live act but he's in Australia and I am in Nevada. You can't get much further than that.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    Hey @brrrse --I just came across this and thought you might find it helpful or just file it away. Go to paragraph 4, 5... short article and just ad hoc found. But since you seem interested, just fyi:
    https://www.theguardian.com/music/mus...

  • @kc5 Jan 2018

    Hah! Funny. I just read that very same article last night. I love top line writing, but it takes me longer than just straight lyrics. It’s much more time-consuming, though I like the results. However, it is concerning to me that I’ve heard of the composer or producer of the music being able to use your lyrics or part of them (somehow—not quite sure how that works) even if they select a different lyric for the music. What’s up with that, anyway? The melody I understand can be a little unclear since driven by the music, but the lyrics? Doesn’t even make sense to me. So many pitfalls. Anyway had a little conversation with a wonderful lady and she recommended a book to me. I hope to check the book out. It’s been around for awhile, I guess, but tried and true and will have as a handy reference as well.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @ustaknow thanks - For a while, I had considered going commercial with my songs - but after looking into the industry - there's nothing in it about music - it's all a money game now...besides - I can't write what people wanna hear on the radio - it's just not my thing. Thanks for the article.

  • @thetau  Jan 2018

    When I observe a thread like this one that is filled with emotion and humans interacting and responding with sometimes genius thought and conclusion, and sometimes uncontrolled human emotional reactions as a songwriter, the first thing I see is...What a great Idea for a song.

  • @stuartbenbow  Jan 2018

    My thoughts are that collaboration and co-write are two different beasts. Similar, but different. I haven’t worried about it in the past, and have been lucky to work with reasonable people, but that isn’t a guarantee of future good fortune.

    I like the approach taken by @writeandwrong ... I’ve done musicals vocals for people, lyrics for people, and I’ve sat down to intentionally co-write, so I’m open for either the we share ownership of the finished product, as well as you own your bit and I own mine approach. I think the latter will be my default for FAWM with a note that I’m open to the former.

    Thanks all for the food for thought.

  • @donna  Jan 2018

    @stuartbenbow You wrote: '..as well as you own your bit and I own mine approach. I think the latter will be my default for FAWM with a note that I’m open to the former.'

    That's my own approach as well (as indicated in the disclaimer under my profile).

  • @mctown Jan 2018

    good stuff... I tend to think in terms of the typical way it's done in Nashville ...everyone that writes is equal... anything after that decided as it comes... Though I usually don't randomly write ...usually talk it out prior to in all cases.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @mctown we'd all like to *think* in those terms, but the harsh reality is there are those who have other intentions. And that's where the problem starts.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    Lots of great advice and conversation here. Bottom line is COMMUNICATE and don't assume! Oh and have FUN!

  • @petemurphy Jan 2018

    I'm backing off from collabs this time around. I've had a lot of really great collabs in the past, but in recent times I've had a few where I thought it had gone really well, only for the other people to completely cut off from me afterwards. I'm still not sure what/if I did wrong, but I've spent the last couple of years in therapy and on medication... I'm doing ok right now, but don't want to put myself in positions where I start questioning myself and wondering if I've unintentionally done someone wrong.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    This thread got more focused on some of that if helps @petemurphy -- well maybe not experienced folks like you but "noobs" 😝 ... someone's gotta mentor the Fawmlings:
    http://fawm.org/forums/topic/7592/

  • @petemurphy Jan 2018

    Thanks @ustaknow - through therapy I've found that I have rejection/abandonment issues. I'm working on it, but still take it kinda hard when it happens.

  • @stevenwesleyguiles  Jan 2018

    @petemurphy Sorry that happened! 😞 I'm glad you've done threapy (I've followed many of your posts on FB). I think one thing that happens during FAWM is the total OVERLOAD of it all. Then stuff just falls out of place. I know for sure that I've totally dropped the ball with people ( I hope I didn't do this to YOU) on a collab because I had so many things going at once. A fault of mine. I'm a people-pleaser and I have a hard time saying no.

  • @johnstaples  Jan 2018

    @petemurphy, dude, you are one of the nicest FAWMers I know! And I am dead serious about that!! You are always kind and thoughtful and helpful and never snarky or short with anyone. Miscommunications can happen anyway but don't sweat it my friend!

  • @writeandwrong  Jan 2018

    @petemurphy , that saddens me and I agree with everything @johnstaples said. You know I'm proud of you for your successes with therapy and there are many others on these boards with their stories, I'm sure. Communication is so important because we have people from all walks of life on here, music levels and experiences, different upbringings, hardships, disabilities, religions, cultures. People can surely relax and have fun on here. We can always get along (always one or two in every bunch), but the most part... we get caught up in the fun engagement quite easily...so it's just good to remember that we all follow the communication rule-of-thumb to keep it that way and all is good. You are an amazing talent, @petemurphy , and I surely hope to see you have an incredible month of February <hugs>

  • @petemurphy Jan 2018

    Well I've had a couple of FAWMers who I thought I got on well with (and had some successful collabs with) delete me from social media with no explanation. I've had people stop responding in the middle of a collaboration, again with no explanation, which kinda means that the time and effort put into the collab is a bit of a waste.

    I'm not sure why these things happened, but they leave me wondering what I did wrong, and if I did do something wrong, why didn't these people bring it up with me. I always try to be kind, fair, and respectful, so if I've done anything that goes against those things I'd rather someone tell me than just cut off contact.

    It's one of the reasons I dropped out of 50/90 last year.

    @stevenwesleyguiles - no, you've never done that to me. I don't believe we've ever collaborated, and Ive always thought you were cooler than cool, and a brilliant musician/writer.

    And thanks for the kind words, guys. Very nice of you.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @petemurphy if you're talking about me - I deleted everyone from social media - pete - I had a nervous breakdown - and cut most the people out of my life - it wasn't personal at you, or anyone else here in FAWM, or 50/90 - ask around - I cut EVERYONE out. I had to. My CPTSD and abandonment issues and sexual abuse issues were so bad I coudln't open facebook. So if it's me you are upset with, please know, again - as I told a lot of people I had to cut them out for ME - and please stop taking it personally - because it had nothing to do with you -

  • @alboe Jan 2018

    @petemurphy
    Whatever the reason might be for people cutting you off, I can't imagine it being your fault.
    These past few years I have come to know you as a very talented writer and musician. And you strike me as being very honest, open and considerate too. So what's not to like?
    I recognize the feeling that you're wondering what you might have done wrong. For me it al comes down to communication and I always appreciate it when things are out in the open, good or bad.
    But some just don't like to talk or won't care to explain.
    Just stay true to yourself and you'll be allright.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    It occurs to me as I go back over previous FAWMs that a personal friendship isn't required for two people to be good collaborators. There's one person I've collaborated with many times, who to be honest, I wouldn't sit down to dinner with because we have such vastly different political and personal beliefs.. - that doesn't stop us from making AMAZING songs together - and hopefully this person will continue to collab with me - The reason he and I get on so well for music is we only talk about music - our song - and we TALK about our music. I don't even have to like you to be able to work with you - anyone should be able to get on with anyone.

  • @petemurphy Jan 2018

    Tasha, it's happened with several people, which is why I was left wondering if it was something in my personality that I wasn't seeing.
    I'm aware that my issues are my issues, and no one else is responsible for me or owes me anything.

    I'm also aware that everyone has their own issues to deal with, and that their reasons might not be anything to do with me, but when it happens several times, it does start to make one wonder...

    I'm not upset with anyone (well, apart from myself, sometimes...)
    I wish the best for everyone.

  • @brrrse  Jan 2018

    @petemurphy okay hon! Sorry, didn't mean to blast, but I don't believe in keeping things around corners - and I think it was best for both if I just said it out loud. Hugs! Bravely and boldly forward! 😀

  • @petemurphy Jan 2018

    To add - my original comment wasn't intended to start anything. It was just to add to the discussion, and mention why I might be more selective about collabs in future.
    I collaborated with someone last year... spent days working on the song/arrangement, I thought the song was really good, only for the other person to stop communicating.
    I ended up thinking "well what a waste of time and effort that was!"

    Again, everyone has their reasons, but I feel it's good manners to see a collab through to the end, or at least communicate if you decide you're not into it any more.

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    Hey @petemurphy -- the bad effects IS what this discussion is about, or when it started in another thread. So, your addition is a great extension of it.

    Assuredly as was getting "mocked", or appeared to go in that direction some were injecting here, --it was *not about "money", rather the fact that, the abused person was not only likely *not to engage FAWM, but other outlets.

    What I start to observe in this extended thread is the irony of the "broken" people seem to be the most normal, --or, how I define "normal". You, @brrrse , others.

    I've been “here” since 2016 and know without reservation there is no reason I've given for anyone not to "like" me, yet they exist. They showed up immediately to somehow make sure I knew. Why? Who knows? Surely is it not me, or --as nasty as I've seen them be, they would surely, gladly let me know and have friends chime in as well! Actually, I would say that it is the folks who have observed the negativity from some of these self proclaimed great-fawmers that --seeded our *good relationship here.

    The reality today is that many will have (pick a number) 1/2 of their "friends" online. Today's reality, so it DOES matter. 100% of many businesses are online, so it DOES matter.

    No, you are in good company here @petemurphy, esp. for speaking up. People need to check personal agenda; if someone does not speak English as first language; and other, -- maturity, real maturity.

    What folks forget too, online, --you never know with whom you speak. The extremes in this can cause a Suicide, or --for *your entire life to wind up on the Dark Web and never know what hit you for messing with someone, way, to, much.
    1/2

  • @ustaknow Jan 2018

    2/2
    I was mocked for having made the comment that one really important element in the Music Business was that you had to be NICE to EVERYONE, and ALWAYS… (are any of these flip-floppers commenting now otherwise when looks good to do so?) go ahead, mock away but advice is advice no matter how silly you process it. Look at the above, -- not nice is the issue.

    Simple, and not TLTR 😉

    Addendum:
    My level of, --"why waste my time", has affected/effected what I will or will not do here, or otherwise. However, I do know that things go in cycles.

    The best "moderator" is what the group-culture allows. If the good stuff gets lost, take a break, as some have done or will do, and then come back.

    This is supposed to be FUN, not a truncated thread list of what is not fun, yet endured because we all happen to LOVE MUSIC 😝 ! -- Another day in the WWW (wild wild west as they used to say).

  • @dorit Feb 27

    Hi Everyone, I need a little help clarifying registering work with ASCAP, and an outside copyright. Im on this Forum because of a fabulous collab on FAWM.
    I am with ASCAP but never registered anything with them. In the past I have only done copyrights. I perform live but never really had an album. So I wrote the lyrics, music, and melody, collaber made an amazing production. How do I proceed in America, collaber is European. Is ASCAP registration enough? Whats the point of that, when there is also the regular and expensive copyright. and how does it work, if collaber did all the production. Im not worried at all, I just want to understand the process and learn some more by being in FAWM. Thank you everyone. 😀

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